VSA reform - time for change

Abi Judd-English (00:24)
Hi everyone and welcome to the second episode of our revamped RCVS podcast where we dissect the goings on at the College, explaining why we do what we do, how we do it and how we can all work together as we continue to support the advancement of the veterinary professions. My name is Abi Judd-English and I work in the Communications Team at the College. In today's episode we'll start off with our usual news roundup, providing you with the latest College updates before going on to our main feature, a Royal College that regulates - veterinary legislation fit for the future.

Within this, we'll be chatting about how the College works, including the ways in which our unique role as a royal college that regulates benefits the veterinary professions and the wider public interest, as well as the vital need for a new Veterinary Surgeons Act fit to serve the needs of modern veterinary practice. This conversation will take place in three parts. So firstly, we will be welcoming our wonderful guest chair, Naomi Nicholson, a trustee of the Institute of Regulation and a member of our Audit and Risk Committee. She'll be chatting to our current president, Tim Parkin and Head of Policy, Insight and Public Affairs Ben Myring about the overarching role and objectives of the College, our governance structure, changes we could expect under a new Veterinary Surgeons Act and what we would like to see, as well as the potential for expanding current scope of regulation. As Ben heads up much of this work, he'll then be chatting to our Director of Veterinary Nursing, Julie Dugmore, more specifically about what this means in the veterinary nursing context.

Finally, Ben and I will have a brief roundup chat summarising the key takeaways from both conversations, including what happens now and how you can get involved. So once again, welcome, and we hope that you find this episode both interesting and insightful.

News update

Abi Judd-English (02:19)
It's not been that long since our last episode, but life at the College has been anything but quiet since then. Our honours and awards nominations have now been open for over a month, and for the first time this year, we've introduced our new collaboration award, designed to recognise best practice in collaboration, whether that's bringing together veterinary professionals working in different organisations or fields, or veterinary professionals working with human medics, scientists, lawyers or law enforcement to improve the health of people, animals and the environment.

There are eight awards categories in total, so if you know of someone who has gone above and beyond carrying out exemplary work within the veterinary world, please do consider nominating them. Nominations close Wednesday 7 January, 2026.

In other news, we also issued our response to the Competition and Market Authority's provisional decision on remedies for the veterinary sector following its market investigation of veterinary services for household pets.

Within this, we expressed support for greater transparency around costs and ownership structures and also welcomed the CMA's findings that the government need to prioritise a new Veterinary Surgeons Act with powers to regulate veterinary businesses.

Elsewhere across the College, our mental health project, the Mind Matters Initiative, announced the recipients of its latest mental health research grants.

The £5,000 Discovery Grant has been awarded to a research project evaluating the implementation of reasonable adjustments in addressing mental health and neurodivergence for student veterinary nurses during clinical placement, while the £15,000 Impact Grant will be used to fuel a project researching organisational interventions to support wellbeing in veterinary workplaces.

The Mind Matters Team have also been collaborating with our free online learning platform, the RCVS Academy to launch two new free CPD courses for veterinary professionals.

The first is around managing mental health in the workplace, while the second, Suicide Awareness Fundamentals, is designed to provide veterinary professionals with a fundamental knowledge and understanding of suicide, enabling them to feel more confident and prepared to respond to suicide-related situations with sensitivity and care.

Over in our Standards and Advice Team, the Autumn Update has now been published and is available to view on our website.

This contains important information regarding some recent changes to the supporting guidance to the Code of Professional Conduct, including new guidance to reduce the misuse of lethal medicines.

Within this, the team sets out updates to the core standards of the practice standards scheme, which will require practices to implement suicide prevention plans.

In addition, the update also includes specific guidance for Northern Ireland regarding forthcoming changes to the prescribing cascade and the distribution of veterinary medicines.

We've also been out and about at numerous events and congresses, most recently the British Veterinary Nursing Association Congress and New Scientist Live, chatting to current veterinary professionals and aspiring veterinary professionals alike.

For more information on all these stories, as well as blogs providing more personal insights into our work, please visit our website, the link to which is in the show notes.

A Royal College that regulates - veterinary legislation fit for the future

Naomi Nicholson (05:29)
It's lovely to be here with you. My name is Naomi Nicholson. I'm a trustee of the Institute
of Regulation, which was established for regulators to provide really a professional network to support regulators to do what they do better and to learn from each other.

And I am also a member of the Audit and Risk Committee of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and I work independently with a number of regulators and I'm really delighted to be here today to be talking to you about the work of the RCVS and some of the current issues that there are going and before I do that, let's just introduce ourselves around the room, Tim.

Tim Parkin (06:02)
Hi, my name's Tim Parkin and I'm current president of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

Ben Myring (06:05)
And I'm Ben Myring, Head of Policy, Insight and Public Affairs at the College.

Naomi Nicholson (06:10)
Great. And one of the reasons actually why I was interested to work with the RCVS was because I was, you know, kind of seeing what the RCVS was doing and seeing the commitment that the RCVS has to being a good regulator. And I know the RCVS is a member actually of the Institute as well and takes part in a lot of our activities, comes to our conferences and takes part in our training and I know is presented at some of our events and things as well.

And I know there's something quite interesting about the RCVS. Because, you know, the RCVS I think is the only regulator that has this dual role of being a royal college as well as a regulator. So there's sort of a lot more professionals kind of involved in the governance and committee structures of the Royal College, and the College has such a wide brief as well. It's fascinating to see how the organisation kind of manages that. And I really wanted to support the work of the RCVS in my role on the Audit and Risk Committee.

And I think it's interesting to see how every different regulator has a different purpose, a different reason for its existence, but we really all exists to protect the public, to maintain standards, to ensure that the public interest is met whether that's in terms of protecting people, protecting the environment or animals.

And so I was wondering, Tim, could you say something a little bit about the objectives of the RCVS and the benefits of being a Royal College that regulates.

Tim Parkin (07:27)
Sure, I mean it's probably worth a little bit of history. So if we think about it, the Royal College is constituted by a Royal Charter and we carry out our functions under the Act of Parliament, making rules and bylaws etc. A new supplemental charter came in place in 2015 and there were two important things that happened at that time. The first is it obviously sets the objectives of the College, namely to set, uphold and advance veterinary standards and to promote, encourage and advance the study and practice of the art and science of veterinary medicine. And I read that quite deliberately just so that we're all aware. And all of that we do in the interest of health and welfare animals and the wider public interest.

The charter importantly gives the College power, again I'm going to read this, to undertake any activities which seem to be necessary and expedient to help it achieve its objects.

Secondly the charter recognises veterinary nursing as a profession and it requires the College to continue to keep a register of veterinary nurses and gives registered veterinary nurses, RVNs, the formal status of associates of the College. The Veterinary Nurses Council is required to set standards for their education, training and conduct and those aspects are really important advances that came in in 2015 from the Charter.

The in quotes Royal College part of what we do operates under that charter and importantly it has enabled the Royal College to go further and probably more rapidly than other similar regulators might have done so over the same period. So most of these additional initiatives are about advancing and supporting the profession. For example under the charter the Royal College is able to run the voluntary Practice Standards Scheme, to which approximately 70% of practices are subscribed. It also enables us, as I said before, to recognise and regulate veterinary nursing as a profession. And one of the key objectives of the reformed Veterinary Surgeons Act is that we will then be pushing to enable us to protect the title of veterinary nurse in the future.

And the charter has also enabled us to really establish important initiatives above and beyond what you might think as normal regulation in terms of things like the Mind Matters Initiative, which has recently celebrated its 10th anniversary, the RCVS Academy, which holds loads of free CPD available to members and registrants, and indeed the VetGDP programme for new graduates, which I'm sure many members of the profession will be aware of through their VetGDP advisor roles.

Naomi Nicholson (09:39)
Thank you, Tim. It's really interesting to hear about how the Charter has supported the work of the RCVS and I've worked with a number of regulators over a couple of decades and where I've seen regulators really having an impact is where that purpose really drives what they do, which is what you've been talking about, Tim. It's really all about meeting that purpose.

I'm interested to hear a bit more about the charter in terms of that future proofing and flexibility that Tim was mentioning.

Ben, do you have anything you wanted to add on that?

Ben Myring (10:04)
Yeah, I think that's part of it that often people don't know about because as Tim says, you've got those sort of two twin objectives there in the charter, partly regulatory setting and upholding standards and then partly that kind of wider role around the art and science of veterinary surgery. And then there's that power there, as Tim says, that means that we can carry out other activities and fund those activities, even if they're not specifically listed in the charter or in the legislation. So long as we feel that they are supporting those objectives we're able to do them and that means that things like veterinary nursing, as Tim mentioned, there's very little in the Veterinary Surgeons Act, and very little in the charter about veterinary nurses, but we introduced regulation of veterinary nurses because of that additional power. Same with the Practice Standards Scheme. Before they were codified in the most recent version of the charter, we already started doing that work and that could happen again in future if you think about whether it's artificial intelligence or other things that at the moment we just can't envisage how that's going to impact the profession just as how in 1966 people weren't really thinking about practice standards or veterinary nurses.

So those powers, even though it's an old piece of legislation, a Royal Charter, you know it's very old-fashioned in one way, it allows us to be very forward-looking and future-proofed in another.

Naomi Nicholson (11:17)
Thank you, Ben. I mean, what you've said really is quite an interesting point there about that need for flexibility. And I know that, it's something that regulators always have to get the balance right on because we can be too prescriptive and then that doesn't give the flexibility and freedom that, the market needs or we can be too broad about it and not be specific enough about what our requirements are and I think that flexibility to be able to respond to changes in the environment is really important for regulators.

Can you say something, Tim, because I know, as the RCVS's work changes and responds to the changes in the environment, there's plans also for changes in our governance. Can you talk a little bit about that, Tim?

Tim Parkin (11:54)

Yeah, one of the clear benefits of being a Royal College that regulates in terms of the additional support and guidance and we can provide with other initiatives. But we have to also recognise that we are a little bit out of sync with similar regulators. And we're almost unique in this Royal College that regulates framework that we have. So, for that reason, Council did approve, a few months ago now, to move to a more appointed rather than elected council.

That will happen as and when the reformed Veterinary Surgeons Act comes into place.

But it's also the case that most regulators retain at least lay parity on their top governance board or council so that's another aspect we're likely to move to.

The exact make-up and structure of that council or board will be determined as part of the reformed Veterinary Surgeons Act.

But this move does bring us much more into line with other regulators and provides the benefit that RCVS can then seek to appoint board members with particular skill sets and expertise, in particular related to regulatory matters or governance. This doesn't mean that members of the profession regulated under the reformed Veterinary Surgeons Act would not be on that board. Indeed that's definitely not the case. We'd most likely see a governance board that had lay parity, so half the board members would be from the professions that the Royal College in future regulates. It's important to note that we'd anticipate that each profession beneath that governance board would have some form of council or faculty through which their own profession in quotes, decisions or initiatives that they wanted to formulate and drive could actually be pushed forward. And again, the constitution of those councils or faculties, whatever they happen to be - so there would likely be a veterinary nursing council or faculty, and there would likely be a veterinary surgeons council or faculty plus other allied professionals which you may come to later on - each of those would have their own faculty or council.

They would then drive forward their own initiatives but the structure of those have yet to be settled upon and that would be part again of the reformed Veterinary Surgeons Act.

Naomi Nicholson (13:43)
Thank you, Tim. It sounds like there's some really careful thinking been taking place about how to get the balance right for the Royal College exactly for your specific circumstances.

Tim Parkin (13:52)
I would say some careful thinking over many, years, many years prior to me coming into this role as well. So yeah, I can't remember when the Legislative Working Group was stood up.

Ben Myring (14:01)
Yeah I think 2017 was when it started and finished in 2021, I think.

Tim Parkin (14:06)
Yeah, so we're getting towards a decade of significant thinking around this aspect.

Naomi Nicholson (14:10)

No, thank you. I mean, Ben and I were exchanging some thoughts earlier today actually about the broader picture here and I think for all regulators, particularly those who are regulating professions, there's a real need to find the right balance between involving and bringing in the expertise of professionals, but also making it very clear that this is an independent regulator who is here to set and maintain and uphold those standards and avoiding any sense of conflict of interest there.

So Ben, could you talk a little bit more about how the RCVS is really exploring that clarity between the regulatory and non-regulatory functions, and what are we thinking about in this area? Where's our current thinking at after this long ten year period thinking internally about this and talking externally too.

Ben Myring (14:52)
Yeah, so there often is a call for greater clarity between the regulatory and non-regulatory functions that the College has. I mean, we should always stress that there is no inherent conflict between those functions. It's not like some bodies in the past that had representative functions and regulatory functions. There's no inherent conflict there, but there are often calls to ensure that the profession has a clearer idea of what those functions are, perhaps through governance reform, and we can definitely explore that.

I mean one option would be for the board to be able to delegate to different committees depending on whether they were carrying out regulatory functions or non-regulatory functions and have a degree of additional financial clarity say on where the money is going there. I think just what we have to be cautious about is undermining any of the benefits of being Royal College that regulates so whether that's clarity I mean it could potentially be counterproductive if you create a system that's too sort of Byzantine.

That could decrease clarity. It could increase costs. There's huge benefits to doing all of this work under one roof. But if you start to create duplication, you know, with two boards or going as far as having two executives and that kind of firewalling, then the costs start to increase greatly and you lose those benefits. And also the whole coherence and cohesion that you get in terms of having the regulation and those additional College functions being carried out under one roof.

To give an example there, in the human medical field it's the royal colleges that do a lot of the work on specialist education and the development and delivery of the curriculums but it's a matter for the regulator to set the standards for those specialist postgraduate qualifications. Here we do it all under one roof and we have a single education department that's informing that work. I recognise that there are some differences because of the role of the European institutions but we do have that shared expertise being able to inform that work across the piece. Whereas if you were to have an internal division or a full split of the college and regulatory functions then you immediately have to duplicate that work and there's additional costs and again lack of cohesion I think that comes with that. So we just need to make sure that any move in that direction is balanced and well evidenced in terms of its impact.

Naomi Nicholson (17:07)
Yeah, thank you, Ben. And that point about efficiency, I think, is really super important because, for any business operating in, the environment that we're in at the moment, it can be really challenging. So all regulators, I think, are, really thinking carefully and governments actually asking regulators to think really carefully about what burden they're placing on those they regulate.

And I was really interested in what you were saying about the two functions there as well because having worked across a number of different regulators, I've noticed that a lot of regulators, particularly over the last 10 years have been doing a lot more to proactively promote standards and to do preventative work and proactively and positively support the professions and those they regulate to comply. So I think there is a really wide range of activities that can fall under the umbrella of what a regulator does and it's not just all about fitness to practice as a regulator, we can do preventative work as well.

Ben Myring (17:55)
So yeah, I think that's a crucial point. So in human healthcare, in other professions, you're actually seeing a growing overlap between the roles of regulators, who are doing more and more supportive regulation, leadership type work, and the traditional work of royal colleges.

So while those regulators still don't go as far as we do when it comes to things like Mind Matters and so on, we still are well out in front on some of that work. Other regulators are in a sense catching up with the RCVS in that role where we have those dual objectives in a sense of setting and upholding standards, but also that more supportive upholding the professions kind of work.

So yeah, in a sense, there's less clarity between their roles than there was before. So I think it would be a backward move to split that work up in the veterinary sector when it isn't being divided elsewhere, particularly when the veterinary sector is so much smaller, less capable of supporting multiple institutions. All it would do would add great cost with little provable benefit. And then again, to reiterate, if you were to go for that full split, then the Royal College would become a voluntary organisation. And those things like MRCVS that a lot of vets feel very passionately about those post-nominals, that membership, that would no longer be synonymous with being a veterinary surgeon.

There are numerous very clear disadvantages of going for a full split, whereas the benefits are really not clear or provable at all as far as I can see.

Naomi Nicholson (19:29)
So I just want to also just talk about some of the changes in the external environment and what's going on. We've mentioned this legislative reform a couple of times that the college is talking to Defra about, and then we also have the Competition and Markets Authority investigating the market. So we've got a lot of things happening outside of the RCVS that the RCVS is involved with.

Tim, could you talk a little bit about what that might mean for the RCVS.

Tim Parkin (19:55)
Sure, I mean it is kind of serendipitous I think that these two things are going on at the same time. They've certainly, you could say to some extent, they've helped each other, to sort of motivate each other, but equally that you might regard the CMA as a bit of a further catalyst for the legislative reform as well. Many people will have seen the preliminary decision report that came out from the CMA and the accompanying consultation to which we would encourage as many registrants to respond as possible. But one of the clear objectives of the reformed Veterinary Surgeons Act is to provide the RCVS with the authority to regulate practices via a mandatory Practice Standards Scheme. And given that many of the CMA remedies relate to exactly that, some of the activities or practices that they would need to undertake rather than necessarily individual veterinary surgeons or veterinary nurses, such as, for example, transparency of pricing, transparency of ownership, development of routes for clients to raise concerns or complaints. There is very clearly a degree, quite a reasonable degree, of overlap between what is going on with respect to the Competition Markets Authority and they might send down orders and what we might hope comes out of the reformed Veterinary Insurgents Act.

Naomi Nicholson (21:03)
So essentially those two pieces could kind of dovetail and support and so you won't have, you know, can kind of bring them together in some way and make it bit more coherent.

Tim Parkin (21:10)
I think there is a certain amount of overlap between the two where they might both end up in the same place. But there's plenty of aspects of each of the two different things going on that are very independent of each other and facing in different ways as well.

Naomi Nicholson (21:23)
There's a lot of moving parts here, isn't there? And it's interesting because again, I was just reflecting before this about, how as regulators, we are also regulated, so the Competition and Markets Authority is looking at this area, you know, I've worked in regulators where I've been subject to regulators having an interest in what we're doing. And actually, we are all regulated, even the regulators. So, we're part of ensuring that the way we regulate meets those wider objectives and public good as well.

Ben, could you say a bit more about the longer term with the reform and the CMA. Where do you think this is kind of going in the longer term and how do you see that playing out?

Ben Myring (21:59)
So I think it dovetails really off what Tim was saying. The CMA aren't just making shorter term recommendations about what they might do through an order, through their own powers. They're also making recommendations for legislative reform, similarly to we have done. And there's a great deal of overlap there. I think what the key bit for me is that they recognise that there's that need regulate businesses, not just practices, but businesses. So at the moment, we only regulate individual vets and veterinary surgeons and that's where our powers of enforcement lie as well.

Whereas if you really want to make practice regulation have teeth, then the enforcement mechanisms need to apply to the practice itself, to the license for that practice, and potentially to the owners of that practice. That could be through fines or other sanctions right up to taking the license away if necessary. And if you don't have that, everything hangs off the lead, the named veterinary surgeon, and that may not be entirely fair, because sometimes they're going to be operating in an environment where decisions are being made by non-vets at the very top of the organisation. You know, the CMA are calling for the regulator to have more teeth in that particular area, which is again what we've been doing since at least 2001. So, there are some real synergies there.

Naomi Nicholson (23:14)
That may come through in the legislative reform in due course.

Ben Myring (23:17)
We hope so, yeah. We know that Defra are in conversation with CMA just as we are, so hopefully we'll all be pointed in the same direction.

Naomi Nicholson (23:25)
And the regulatory geek in me is quite fascinated about how that regulation of practices will work and that's something obviously quite new for this sector, but a number of other regulators, particularly in the sort of healthcare sector, there are already models out there aren't there for regulators who regulate both professionals and the organisations as well like the General Optical Council for example. So there are those sort of models out there that can be looked at and can help inform anything that might be done in this space.

Ben Myring (23:50)
Definitely yeah, pharmaceutical council too, I think.

Naomi Nicholson (23:54)
Thank you, that's been really helpful and is there anything else we'd like to highlight for people that's happening in the College at the moment that people might be interested to hear about Tim, I don't know if there's anything you'd want to add.

Tim Parkin (24:05)
I think a couple of other aspects just to think more broadly about the amount of work that's gone into the Veterinary Surgeons Act reform and that sort of thing. We've had these as they're called sprints with Defra since December, January time, an enormous amount of time has been spent on that. And, a couple of other things that maybe the professionals would be interested in that we've touched on in there, things like license to practice, new fitness to practice regimes might come in. At the moment we can only really take forward to disciplinary committee, cases that provide a real prospect of being agreed as serious professional misconduct. And really our only sanctions are sort of suspension or striking people off the register. What we'd really want to be getting to is a much more forward looking fitness to practice regime where we support individuals and look forward with their professional conduct in the future and ensure that essentially, they don't fall foul of the disciplinary process. So that's one aspect that has taken quite a lot of our time and quite a lot of attention.

Another aspect that's potentially of interest is a potential move to license to practice regime where we could look at for example conditional license practice or conditional licensure such that individuals who may not be able to complete all day one competencies for example for reasons of some form of disability are still able to practice in some form but with a conditional licence to enable them to do so and I think that would be a real advance for us, better reflect the society that we serve.

Naomi Nicholson (25:25)
Thank you. Yeah, it sounds like you've been a bit restricted there. It's been a bit of a blunt instrument and you're looking at something that's much more flexible and responsive to people's needs.

Tim Parkin (25:33)
No, that's exactly right.

Naomi Nicolson (25:36)
Thank you. And Ben, is there anything you want to add to let people know about this point?

Ben Myring (25:38)
The one that really kind of excites me as a geek, a regulatory geek, as you put it is around the regulation of other professionals. So at the moment we just regulate veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses but there are obviously plenty of other professionals out there who are working in an unregulated environment whether that's musculoskeletal therapists of one kind or another, physios, chiropractors, osteopaths, and veterinary technicians - a fairly new but growing profession - and then cattle foot trimmers, equine dental technicians. If we can get these people onto formal registers with protected titles, that has the potential to have a huge impact both on public assurance but also on animal health and welfare too. You know, you can really set and uphold their standards. Everybody then knows what the educational level of these people are, so you have that assurance as veterinary surgeons as well to know who to work with, who to delegate to. And yeah, I think the potential impact of that on the whole veterinary team is enormous.

Naomi Nicholson (26:34)
Thank you. Yeah, and that sounds like another change which is really embedded in what we talked about at the start about the purpose of the regulator, the interests of the health and welfare of animals and the wider public interest. It sounds like we're thinking about all of that when we're thinking about allied health professionals as well.

Ben Myring (26:50)
Definitely.

A veterinary nursing perspective

Julie Dugmore (27:06)
I'm Julie Dugmore, a registered veterinary nurse. I qualified in 1987 following training in a small animal general practice. And I was in practice for around 15, 16 years before moving into a teaching position. And then I actually joined the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons in December of 2002. So coming up 23 years this year.

I've had varied roles within that time - started as an external verifier and then moved my way up the ranks and now I'm Director of Veterinary Nursing, leading the team working on both regulatory and charter functions.

Ben Myring (27:43)
So Jules has been at the College for even longer than I have. I think I started at the end of 2006 and I started in the veterinary nursing department as Jules will remember very well. And I think one of the first things that I worked on once I moved into policy work was trying to protect the veterinary nurse title in the big campaign that we had back in 2015 which, although that wasn't successful in of itself, it did get the ball rolling with discussions with Defra and internally about what we wanted from legislative reform. But yeah, over those years, we've seen such a big change with veterinary nursing being properly regulated and going from the list to the register and so on. So there's been huge strides made, but we can only go so far under the charter. We need to be able to protect the title which needs proper legislative change.

So I was wondering Jules, why you thought that protecting the title meant so much to veterinary nurses.

Julie Dugmore (28:34)
I think it matters because it's about fairness, it's about recognition, it's about trust. Veterinary nurse training is hard. It takes a long time. The student nurses have to meet robust standards, the day one competencies, the day one skills, professional behaviours. And at the end of it, whether it's a two year programme or a four year programme, they join the register and they are accountable professional people. They are not assistants, they're very skilled and they are an essential part of the veterinary healthcare team. And I think protecting the title, it's not about status, but it's about recognising that expertise that they bring to the patient health and welfare and the clients and the patient outcomes.

Regulation, I think, gave us a basis, it gave us professional status, it gave us accountability. And it also gave us a clear identity, but it is just a foundation. And without that protecting of the title, anybody can call themselves a veterinary nurse. They can probably still and probably will still do that even with the title protected. But it does, I think, give some reassurance to the profession that they have a protected title and it allows the public to understand that we are professional people in our own right, who are caring for their animals.

Ben Myring (29:51)
Yeah, so it's that public assurance bit as well, so that the public know who people that are using particular professional titles are and how they're trained. Because, if you go to a veterinary practice, you should be able to assume that if someone's called a vet, that they're a veterinary surgeon, someone's called a VN, that they're actually a proper registered veterinary nurse. So that stuff is really important.

What do you think the other planned reforms that we're working on that would impact VNs? What do you think about those? Is there any that you'd highlight in particular?

Julie Dugmore (30:22)
I think probably the most significant is reforming schedule three, which is outdated. It doesn't sort of cater for the fact that veterinary nurses are now professional, regulated accountable people. It's very rigid. It's ambiguous and that ambiguity can lead to it being limiting. Veterinary surgeons don't necessarily have confidence to delegate and all of the tasks currently have to be delegated. think the proposal to replace it with a system that's more flexible, where the regulator can determine what tasks a nurse will do and with what kind of or level of autonomy is brilliant. That will also allow us to potentially add skills to further qualifications. So our advanced certificate in veterinary nursing, for example, whilst it currently has a lot of extra advanced knowledge at the moment, it's not got any skills because once you're on the register, you're a veterinary nurse and you can have delegated tasks so long as the veterinary surgeon is confident that you are competent and qualified to take on that delegation.

I think a more modern, flexible approach is what the profession needs in order for us to continue to evolve and work to the top of our licence. And it would also, I think, future-proof. So as we evolve further, we will be able to bring in more skills, more autonomy etc.

Ben Myring (31:52)
Definitely true. Schedule 3, it's rightly disliked, I think, as a mechanism for doing things at the moment. What one of its eccentricities that not many people know about, is that it links veterinary nurses to farmers. So the same language is used to veterinary nurses as it is for farmers. So at the moment, if we say that VNs can do more, if we say something is covered by schedule three, that also means that farmers can do it on their own animals without any training. That's one of the limitations that we're facing at the moment. Jules, anything else that you think that we should highlight when it comes to the legislative reform?

Julie Dugmore (32:30)
I think separating employment from delegation would be a really big step forward. It would open up the door to more flexible ways of working. So community nursing, for example, potentially an advanced practitioner, particularly if we can add certain skills to certain roles or statuses, it would mean we could take on more responsibility.

We can do preventative and follow-up care that we can't necessarily do at the moment, working as part of that team. Right person, right time, right skill, right job. I think that would a key thing.

And it's not a radical idea. We see it already in human healthcare. There are nurses who are advanced practitioners, there are community nurses, district nurses.

So I think bringing that kind of model into veterinary practice would make the whole system stronger by making best use of everyone's skills.

Ben Myring (33:23)
I think another thing perhaps worth mentioning in that context is the possibility of a VN prescribe a role, we've been thinking about for quite some time. That's actually not something that requires the Veterinary Surgeons Act to change. It would need the veterinary medicines regulations to change. But it's definitely worth exploring a role in which VNs can do more in terms of first vaccinations, in terms of flea and worming prescriptions, for instance, things that are sort of low risk that they may be able to prescribe without a vet first carrying out a clinical assessment. So that's something we've got a research project at the moment that's assessing the risks and benefits around that.

Summary chat

Abi Judd-English (34:13)
Yeah, so Ben, obviously some really, really interesting conversations that you've had this afternoon with obviously Naomi and Tim, and then just with Jules just now. But obviously you head up all of this work at the College, with a huge range of people, both internally and externally. And I know that it can be a bit of a minefield. There's a lot to navigate and it can sometimes be really difficult to distill, which is obviously why we've recorded this podcast, just to sort of try and simplify things a little bit for people.

If you want people to take sort of one thing away from these conversations today, what would it be and why?

Ben Myring (34:47)
I can't believe you're trying to get me to restrict to just one thing when there's, yeah, as you say, there are so many elements to this.

I think depending on who you are, whether you're member of the public or a member of the profession, or indeed, you know, a veterinary nurse, rather than a veterinary surgeon, there may be different things that a more or less important to you.

I think if I were to highlight one thing though, it would be that preservation of the Royal College that regulates model.

Because while it is unique and it isn't the norm, I would argue that it is best practice. It's very cost effective. It does allow a coherent and cohesive approach to regulation, holistic approach to regulation. And it allows us to go further than other regulators when it comes to that supportive work, that leadership work that other regulators do, but they're not going anywhere near as far as we do. And it also means that the professions are more closely involved in their own regulation than you see elsewhere. You know, we've got veterinary nurses and veterinary surgeons embedded on every committee in a way that you don't necessarily see in other regulators, but much more is in the hands of the executive. I do think it's an important and precious thing and something that other professions actually should be looking to emulate as a model. And I do think that if that were to be lost, it would be a real shame and would have no discernible benefits, actually, none that can be really evidenced, the losses of the things that we would no longer have, if you were to no longer have that model, I think they would be quite clear.

Abi Judd-English (36:19)
Yeah, completely, because the value of that knowledge and experience of the veterinary professionals themselves, that can't be underestimated within all the work that we do. And it is really important and we really need that knowledge as well.

What do you think this means moving forward? Why is it so important for people to sort of get involved and get their voices heard and how can they do that? So obviously, veterinary professionals themselves, but also other stakeholders and the wider public as well.

Ben Myring (36:47)
It's a good question. We've been in discussions with Defra throughout this year about the possibility of actually achieving these legislative reforms. And, we're closer than we've ever been, we think. It seems likely that Defra will consult on recommendations for legislative reform, and hopefully sooner rather than later. If they want to introduce new legislation in time for it to pass before the next election, then they really need to make some decisions on that fairly soon. If that consultation does come about, that is a once in a generation, in several generations, opportunity for everyone to have their say, whether you're a member of the public or a member of the professions, to actually express your views on this. I would strongly urge you to, when that opportunity comes about, to support those reforms to have that new modern legislation giving us those same powers that other regulators now have and to preserve the Royal College that regulates model. Take the opportunity, whether as an individual or whether as part of an organisational response, super important that the message is heard loud and clear in government that it is time for that change.

Abi Judd-English (37:57)
It's exciting times, it? Change is coming and Veterinary Surgeons Act originally from 1966. So I think we are well overdue aren't we.

Ben Myring (38:06)
It's even older than me.

Abi Judd-English (38:07)
Well, thank you very much, Ben. And it's been great chatting with you and speak again very soon, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (38:11)
Hope so - thanks all. Bye.

Outro

Abi Judd-English (38:28)
That brings us to the end of our second episode. A big thank you to all our guests and to you for listening. If you have any questions or suggestions for future content, please don't hesitate to reach out to us at [email protected]. We've added this email address to the show notes, where a link to our news, blog and events pages can also be found. We've also added a link to our podcast webpage, where all podcast episodes will be available to download from now on.

Remember to like and subscribe on whatever platform you listen to your podcasts on so you don't miss an episode. We've always got loads going on and there are plenty of opportunities for you to get involved. I'd really recommend keeping an eye on our news and events pages as well as on social media as the chances are there'll be something happening that you'll be keen to get involved in. And we also now have a WhatsApp channel so you can get RCVS updates directly to your phone.

Currently this is only available to access directly via a link. So we've added that link into the show notes for ease as well. So you can just click that to follow us on there. And finally, if you're a veteran professional, don't forget listening to this episode counts towards your CPD. So be sure to record and reflect on one CPD app. Many thanks again for listening. hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you next time.

Abi Judd-English (00:24)

Hi there and welcome to this month's episode of the RCVS podcast, giving you an insight into everything that's going on at the College, explaining why we do what we do, how we do it and how we can all work together as we continue to support the advancement of the veterinary professions. I'm Abi Judd-English, a member of the RCVS Communications Team and today we're going to be talking about the reform of the Veterinary Surgeons Act from a veterinary nursing perspective with our Head of Policy, Insights and Public Affairs, Ben Myring, our Chair of Veterinary Nurses Council, Belinda Andrews-Jones, and our Director of Veterinary Nursing, Julie Dugmore. We'll be covering the all-important questions, including why reform of the VSA is so important, what it could mean for veterinary nurses and the wider veterinary team, and how this links to our recently published response to DEFRA's consultation on the proposed new legislation. I'll then be rejoined by Julie and Jill MacDonald, our Veterinary Nursing and Progressive Development Lead, to chat about our VN Vision project - exploring the development of the veterinary nurse role and how team-based veterinary healthcare can be reimagined to maximise efficiency, enhance job satisfaction and improve access to care for animal owners. But before we delve into that, it's time for our usual news update summarising some of the key stories from across the College.

Abi Judd-English (01:51)

With around one week to go until DEFRA's consultation on the reform of the Veterinary Surgeons Act draws to a close, don't miss your opportunity to have your say. And if you're pushed for time, please remember that you don't have to complete the whole consultation, but can respond to the sections of most interest and relevance to you. For example, around veterinary nursing, mandatory practice regulation, or fitness to practice reform. Earlier this month, we published our organisational response to the consultation which welcomes DEFRA's incorporation of many of our long-standing recommendations for legislative change. You can read our full response and complete the consultation for yourself via our Time for Change page, the link to which is in the show notes.

In other news, voting has now opened for our 2026 RCVS Council election, with veterinary surgeons being able to vote for up to three of the 15 candidates standing this year before 5pm on Friday the 24th of April, 2026. As there were only two candidates standing for Veterinary Nurses Council this year for the two available places, there will be no VN Council election. The two candidates will automatically be welcomed as new VN Council members in the summer.

At the March RCVS Council meeting, Council voted for Chair of our Education Committee, Professor David Barrett FRCVS, to become Junior Vice President at Royal College Day this year. At the ceremony, we will also welcome new incoming President, Tim Hutchinson, while current President, Professor Tim Parkin, will take up his role as Senior Vice President.

Elsewhere across the College, this month we launched our new website, providing improved access to information and services putting our users and their needs at the heart of its design. The new site, which replaces the previous one dating back to 2011, brings together the separate websites for professionals, animal owners and the RCVS Mind Matters Initiative, so that resources which were previously published across separate web pages are now easy to find within a single coherent structure.

Over in our Academy Team, we're proud to announce the launch of our new time management course, providing veterinary professionals with practical strategies to prioritise effectively, manage competing demands and work more sustainably in busy veterinary workplaces. Our Academy is free to access for all veterinary surgeons and registered veterinary nurses and houses a whole host of CPD courses in a range of areas. You can find the link to the RCVS Academy and find out more about all our latest news stories via the link in the show notes.

Ben Myring (04:24)

Hello everyone. We are here today to talk about legislative reform, and in particular, we're focusing on veterinary nursing. You'll hear this several times through this discussion, that this is a really important moment. There's a consultation open from DEFRA and it's very important that everybody takes the opportunity to respond to it in order to increase the chances of us getting legislative reform.

You will hear several people say that during the course of this, but that's because of how important it is. But yes, my name is Ben Myring. I'm the Head of Policy, Insights and Public Affairs at the RCVS. And with me, we also have, Jules.

Julie Dugmore (05:00)

Hi everybody, my name is Julie Dugmore. I'm a registered veterinary nurse and Director of Veterinary Nursing here at the RCVS.

Ben Myring (05:07)

And we also have Belinda.

Belinda Andrews-Jones (05:08)

I'm Belinda Andrews-Jones, I'm a registered veterinary nurse and I'm also a chair of the RCVS VN Council. I'm also chair of Standards and I'm also on the main Council. And in my day job, I'm a veterinary nurse, I'm the Head of New Practice Operations at Hello Vet.

Ben Myring (05:22)

Thank you. did you want to kick us off with some opening comments? I know you also think this is a very important moment.

Belinda Andrews-Jones (05:28)

Yes, this is incredibly important. This is what the veterinary profession and veterinary nurses have been waiting for for decades and I certainly have. This can't come any sooner. Government have finally gone into consultation about the reform of the Veterinary Surgeons Act of 1966. This is not a normal survey. I know you do lots of surveys, lots of different ones. This is different. This is a really, really important one. It has the power to change the veterinary profession for the future.

It closes on the 25th of March. It does take a little bit of time, but it's extremely important for everybody to respond as much as possible and we're here to explain more.

Ben Myring (06:01)

Yeah, and worth adding that you may find that there are parts of the consultation that you don't have strong feelings about, but there are others you may do, especially the stuff around veterinary nursing. And so you can choose to not answer some questions and answer others if you are pressed for time. But the RCVS alongside BVA and BVNA have been calling for reform for many years, as you know. And we are finally in a situation where the current government seems keen on actually introducing new legislation. And we spent much of last year between, I think it was January and August, having two meetings a week, two half day meetings a week with the government to discuss what that reform should look like. Happily, they started with the RCVS recommendations. And that was the sort of starting point for all of our discussions, because we'd already put the thought in there. And the consultation that's come around, looks a lot like the recommendations that we initially made, and most of the things that we asked for are in that consultation. So today we will take you through the key bits of that legislative reform. So we'll talk about licensing reform, which yes, would include protection of the veterinary nurse title. We'll talk a bit about practice regulation and how that fits in with the Competition and Markets Authority Investigation. A bit around allied professionals and how they all fit in and fitness to practise, which is disciplinary reform. And finally, a little bit about governance reform too and how we're looking to modernize there. But kicking off with a brief explanation around the licensing reform, I'm going to hand over to Jules.

Julie Dugmore (07:28)

So the thing I wanted to sort of pick up on from your little section there Ben was about protecting of the title which is what always gets people talking. It's the bit that people are very excited about and I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's about fairness, it's about recognition and it's about trust and this is hugely important for veterinary nurses who go through significant training. They undertake many exams and assessments. They meet professional standards and they're regulated by the RCVS. They're skilled clinicians. They're not support staff. They are essential members of the veterinary healthcare team. Protecting the title, I think, recognises that. It acknowledges that veterinary nursing is a skilled and professional role, but it's not just about status, it's not just about the profession itself, it's also about members of the public. And if a member of the public hears somebody calling themselves a veterinary nurse, then they should have the confidence that that person is skilled, qualified and regulated. And also, the protection of the title sort of ensures that for the public and it's good for those who rely on professionals to care for their animals. In terms of regulation from an RCVS perspective, we are looking at potentially regulating other healthcare providers. So when we talk about healthcare, we often think it is just veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses, but it's not. There's lots of other skilled professionals out there who also contribute to animal health and welfare. For example, your musculoskeletal therapists, your physiotherapists, probably vet techs. So as we regulate those, it will be good for us to also have the protection of the title for everybody that is within that healthcare remit. So the public is assured that whoever they might get referred to is actually properly qualified, professional, and regulated.

Ben Myring (09:28)

Thanks Jules. Belinda, do you want to say a little more about that public assurance aspect to this?

Belinda Andrews-Jones (09:32)

Yeah, there are many other ways to improve the veterinary profession but also to strengthen public assurance too. At the moment, veterinary nurses remain on the register if they pay their fee once a year and they will remain on there. Vets and veterinary nurses are meant to do their CPD, most do, most are great but some don't or at least they don't always tell us, which can be difficult. In other professions, regulators can stop people from re-registering if they are not compliant with CPD, so what we're looking for is to have the power to be able to be the same, which will be fair to everybody, will reassure the public that everybody's keeping up to date and all veterinary nurses should take responsibility for their learning and development. And this will help, ensure animal health and welfare.

Ben Myring (10:12)

Yeah and another aspect of licensing reform is conditional licenses. Jules, do want to talk us through a little bit about that?

Julie Dugmore (10:20)

absolutely. the introduction of different types of conditional licenses could apply in a few situations. For example, new registrants entering the profession, veterinary nurses returning to the register after a long time away, or those who have qualified overseas and want to practice in the UK. In many ways, I think veterinary nurses are already ahead of the curve. They're ahead of veterinary surgeons when it comes to having a structured return to practice process. Introducing conditional licences would give this process a clearer regulatory framework and would help support people returning to the profession safely and confidently. There's also discussions around advanced qualifications that potentially would fit in this remit. And the idea here would be that veterinary nurses undertake additional training to take on expanded responsibilities within the veterinary team. Ultimately, the changes are about recognising growing skills and expertise within the profession, while ensuring that there are clear standards and safeguards in place.

Ben Myring (11:22)

Yeah, that's it. So where conditional licensing is maybe adding additional supervision requirements, say to people coming back into practice, advanced qualifications for veterinary nurses would work differently in that they would allow people to do additional things following additional training. Belinda, do you want to talk a bit more about that?

Belinda Andrews-Jones (11:40)

One example is possibility of community or district nursing. What we're hoping for is that veterinary nurses will no longer need to be employed by the delegating veterinary surgeon. This means that RVNs will be able to work in multiple practices and help clients at their home.

Ben Myring (11:52)

And another possibility that we're looking at is a VN prescriber role. That actually isn't a reform of the Veterinary Surgeons Act. It's the veterinary medicines regulations that would need to be changed there. But the same kind of principle applies that through additional training, you would be able to do more. We've been carrying out some research to look at the kind of conditions that are usually seen when an animal is first presented and having a panel look through those conditions and symptoms to see whether they think that it's the sort of things that the ends might miss because of the different training they have and whether additional training could kind of bridge that gap to allow the ends to prescribe certain medications. So there could be some additional interesting news about VN reform coming out later. Jules, you mentioned allied professionals. Do want to talk to us a little bit more about how that might work under a new VSA?

Julie Dugmore (12:39)

Absolutely. I think I've already said that when we think about animal health and welfare, we often focus on vets and veterinary nurses, but in reality, care is delivered by a much wider team. It's increasingly collaborative and multidisciplinary, and the proposals would bring these professions under one regulated framework. The idea is that the College could have the power to create new professional registers in the future with new protected titles.

So just like veterinary nurses, it's about public assurance, making sure that anyone using a professional title is properly trained, qualified and regulated. Potential professions, I think I've already mentioned the musculoskeletal specialists, cattle foot trimmers and equine dental technicians. There's also the possibility of including veterinary technicians who work with livestock, giving them a formal recognised professional framework.

It's another way that the system could evolve to recognise specialist skills while ensuring safety and trust for the public and animals alike.

Ben Myring (13:42)

Yeah, another group that we've been looking at is clinical animal behaviourists. I think increasingly they play a very important part. It's probably also worth mentioning farriers because the consultation does mention the possibility that the regulator would regulate farriers who currently have got their own regulator and their own bit of legislation. But it might be that we would protect the title and be responsible for their regulation too. I think there's some logic there when you compare their work and their interaction with vets, to some of the people that we're looking to regulate. But I think we're sort of neutral on that question. But government may well end up deciding that farriers should come under the Veterinary Surgeons Act as well. So far, we've been talking about individual professional regulation, though. But another big part of the piece is regulation of practices and the businesses that own those practices.

Belinda, could you tell us a little bit about that?

Belinda Andrews-Jones (14:35)

Yes, So currently the RCVS only regulates vets and vet nurses. We have a practice standards, which is a fabulous thing, but it is only voluntary. So not all practices are complying with it. The consultation proposes that the RCVS would regulate businesses and practices. This would mean that all practices would be inspected for standards and this would help ensure what the public expect. Businesses would have a licensee, it would also have a responsible person who would be a registrant. So that would make sure that the profession are at the heart of any decision making with any practice. It could also mean that VNs could own their own businesses from a, for instance, district nurse point of view. So it could help with that area as well.

Ben Myring (15:12)

Yeah, it's of huge importance. If you think about what the Competition and Markets Authority are interested in, it's the business regulation side of things, transparency around pricing and ownership and I suspect that their recommendations are going to end up being quite linked to this area of business. Literally, that businesses should be regulated and enforcement powers be against businesses and practices rather than just on individual vets in order that those things can be enforced better than we can do now.

Something that links to that somewhat is this idea that the RCVS can be a scary monster that's here just to discipline people. And I think that's linked to our lack of modern powers when it comes both to practices, but also to the disciplinary side of things. And we've been looking at reform there. The consultation makes some proposals on this.

Jules, could you fill us in a bit about that?

Julie Dugmore (16:03)

So the idea would be to make the process more forward looking rather than focusing solely on what someone may have done wrong in the past. The emphasis would shift to whether a professional is currently fit to practise. So alongside this, there would be a wider range of sanctions. At the moment, the options are fairly binary. We can either strike somebody off or suspend somebody.

Whereas in other professions, the fitness to practise process can also allow regulators to put conditions on someone's licence, offering a more effective and proportionate approach. It means the system can protect the public while being less harsh on professionals, supporting remediation and ongoing professional development where appropriate.

Ben Myring (16:47)

That's right, and there will be the ability to take more into account things like mental health issues and so on. So you could be supportive in that respect and just ensuring that anybody on the register is fit to practise but not treating in a punitive way. I think that's going to be really important. The last thing that we should probably talk about is governance.

So yes, it's worth saying that the Royal College's current governance structure is very old fashioned for a regulator. So we currently have this big council of 24 people, which is a majority of veterinary surgeons on there and it's majority elected. Whereas if you look at pretty much any other regulator now, they have a small board on top of the organization and that would usually have 10 to 12 people on it.

It has what they call lay parity. So half of that number, that 10 or 12, would be drawn from the registrants that they're actually overseeing. So vets, veterinary nurses, potentially allied professionals in future. But the other half are what are called lay people. So they're drawn from any other profession. They're people that are recruited for their expertise in governance.

And governance is essentially making sure that the decisions that are a made throughout the organisation are being made properly, had proper consultation and so on and so forth. That's the skill set you're recruiting for people that know how that works. So we're expecting this in legislative reform. Our council will be replaced by a board of that nature that would be appointed for the expertise of the people that are on the board rather than being picked for any particular profession, whether veterinary surgeons or veterinary nurses. We would though expect that sitting underneath that board, there would be councils or faculties that would be dedicated to each profession that we regulate. So a little bit like we have Veterinary Nurse Council now, there would be a committee of some form like that for nurses, but also it would be a separate one for veterinary surgeons who don't currently have their own and there would be one for any new allied professions that we came to regulate in future, and those would all feed up to the new board. So you've got a kind of degree of autonomy within the structure for each profession. And I think that that idea that the board at the top is no longer majority of veterinary surgeons, that's very important because it demonstrates that the profession isn't setting and marking its own homework, if you like. And that could be quite impactful for the public who are kind of looking to be assured that that isn't happening. But Belinda, perhaps you'd want to say a little bit more about that.

Belinda Andrews-Jones (19:21)

Yeah, this is a really important governance area. And it can be quite hard for veterinary clinical people to actually kind of get their head around this, because it is something quite different. I'm just going back to what we mean by lay parity is they're not just random lay people that don't know what they're talking about. These are experts in their field. So they are doing kind of similar roles in a slightly different profession. So something that's similar to us, it could be dentistry, medical, could be law, all sorts of areas, but they are pure experts in their field. They're not making decisions on clinical matters or veterinary clinical matters. That is absolutely not what they would be doing. They would be from a much more of a higher governance point of view and there'll be lots of other committees underneath that will be doing clinical things.

I've certainly learned a huge amount over the years about regulation and it's quite a hard subject to kind of get your head around. But lay parity is really, really important to have. So like Ben says, not marking your own homework. I'm one of the rarer people I'm actually appointed rather than elected. So I have seen it all the way through. It is very much, you get chosen for your skills, knowledge, behaviour. You have to go through a really, strong kind of assessment to be chosen for that right position and it is really important that we don't just have vets within the governance and that we do have people that are based solely on their knowledge and skills. It shouldn't matter if they're a vet or vet nurse or a veterinary physiotherapist - it's based on their knowledge of regulation and how it works. I'm on the vet council and so is Kirsty. And we have exactly the same voting powers as all of the vets. And I'm very passionate to make sure that we have the right people for the right skills. And it shouldn't necessarily be based on their clinical background.

Ben Myring (21:01)

Yes, I always think it's fascinating to watch the sort of dynamic that we have between lay members of council and professional members of council. As lay people bring in that broader perspective of regulation and that helps to add to the big picture, I think. And then perhaps it's a sort of moderating influence as well. Or they moderate each other because you do need those professionals, those professional members of council as well to really understand how the profession works. So they do kind of moderate each other in that sense.

Ben Myring (21:28)

So final thoughts for me then, the consultation, as Belinda said, is due to finish on the 25th of March. Please do respond to that. The more that we get, the more likely we are to get what's called a bill slot. You know, any government has about 20 bills a year that they get to pass that then become law. And the more people that respond to this consultation, the more it will show that there is you know, support for this and that it's a good idea and it'll make government more likely to find us a bill slot.

In terms of timing, the consultation should get a formal response from government, so 12 weeks or so, maybe a little longer after the consultation closes, so sometime towards the summer. So that will be government, saying what their policy is based on having that consultation. And then if they're serious about this, you might then see the bill being drifted up over the course of following 12 months or so.

And if we're lucky, if everything goes to plan, we might hear about a new bill in the King's speech, perhaps next summer, summer next year. So there's still a whole lot of steps to go through and there's no guarantee that any of this is going to happen. But again, the more people that respond to the consultation, the more likely it is to happen.

Ben Myring (22:42)

So Belinda, as supremo of veterinary nursing. So any final words from you?

Belinda Andrews-Jones (22:47)

Yeah, this is such an important thing. Again, I can't stress anymore that this is not just a survey that doesn't count. This is massive. If you have ever wanted change in the veterinary professions, please, please respond to it. Your voice is so important with this. Take the time to complete it. It does take a little while. Give yourself time to do it. As Ben said, you don't have to fill in every single area of it and you can let your voice be heard. I'm a massive believer of change and hope for the future. And my motto is if a human nurse can do it, why can't we with the right skills and knowledge and behaviour? Why not for the future? Anything could be possible, but we need to hear you. So the more responses, the more chances that we have to get a bill slot. So yeah, thank you very much.

Abi Judd-English (23:47)

So continuing on the theme of looking to the future and the sort of ongoing evolution of the sector, we've got a really exciting project running at the moment and we've got Jules here again to tell us all about it and also Jill, who is our veterinary nursing progression and development lead. So yeah, we're here to talk about our VN Vision project, aren't we? Can I just ask you Jules, what is the VN Vision project and why was it created?

Julie Dugmore (24:11)

That's a very good question Abi. So some of our listeners may remember that back in 2015 we partnered with the British Veterinary Nursing Association and created the VN Futures project where we engaged with the profession at that point looking at opportunities for development and we came up with a report that was launched in 2016 that had six ambitions and 31 actions. And between ourselves and BVNA, over the following sort of period of six, seven years, we were working to address those actions. Obviously, we've had a lot of change in terms of landscape. We've been through the COVID pandemic. There's been workforce crisis, cost of living.

So at the end of 2024, when Jill and I were looking at the actions that we felt RCVS could continue to support and address, we felt that with the changes, that actually it was most important that we got out and chatted to people again to see were those actions still relevant? A lot of them, probably not. And actually what was relevant. Where did veterinary nursing fit in team-based healthcare in 2030, 2035? What would the role of the nurse look like at that point? And how would we get there? So that started really the very first VN Vision project. And we spent the better part of 2025 engaging with the professions. We spoke to, at that point, just veterinary nurses and student veterinary nurses, asking them that question around team-based healthcare. And we created then a snapshot report and an article that has been published in the Veterinary Nurse. And then following on from that and the retirement of VN Futures in August of 2025, we continued with VN Vision and strengthening the role and so that is the next part of this project.

Abi Judd-English (26:21)

Brilliant. Yeah, it's a really exciting project. It's been great to sort of see you and Jill going out there and speaking to so many amazing veterinary nurses and just professionals in general in the veterinary sphere, because I know it's not just nurses that you want to get involved. You want everyone to get involved, don't you? And that's something really important to us at the RCVS is getting that collaborative approach to things.

So yeah, Jill, what are the sort of key goals or long-term outcomes that the project is aiming to achieve, would you say?

Jill Macdonald (26:49)

Hi Abi. Yeah just to go back to your previous point, it has been amazing. Jules and I have just really enjoyed going out there, engaging with vet nurses, student vet nurses, but also veterinary surgeons, other support staff within the profession. It's just been such a rewarding couple of years, I suppose, and the amount of engagement and input we've had from the profession has been brilliant. But as Jules said, this started off as VN Vision and then that first derivative project to come from that was strengthening the role of RVNs in team-based veterinary healthcare. Because one of the things that kept coming out during our initial VN Vision events was that veterinary nurses were just not performing the role that they should be within practice.

They weren't performing to the maximum amount that they could do within the current legal framework. There was maybe just not that real integration of veterinary nurses and there wasn't a real feeling of a team-based approach to veterinary healthcare. It was kind of felt like vets and nurses were performing their roles in a more isolated way than we felt would be beneficial. And in fact, that the nurses that were coming to our events were saying they wanted to see and feel within practice. And that's what we really wanted to hone in on first, really looking at how nurses can maximise their role. So the overarching aim, I suppose, is, you know, how can vet nurses be more fully integrated into multidisciplinary teams, and how do we get there? So we've been trying to define those long-term goals. Think of really practical context specific, ways that we can achieve that and also how we can measure whether that's been successful or not. So we've been going around doing yet more workshops with the whole wider veterinary team, so vets, nurses and support staff and creating a theory of change which you may or may not have heard of which is basically a way of creating a sort step-by-step picture of how we achieve this long term goal.

Once we've gathered all that data, we'll perform a somatic analysis on that and create a theory of change from that data which is totally inputted to by the veterinary profession. It is fully co-designed. It isn't something that we've just thought of and this is how we need to tackle it. It's the profession coming to us and saying these are the issues we see, this is how we think it should be addressed. These are the steps we can take to achieve change.

Abi Judd-English (29:23)

Yeah, that's a really, really interesting point. I mean, it comes back to our strategic plan as well as a College overall, we're stronger together. That is our motto at the College. And I think it is getting everybody involved into those conversations to allow veterinary teams to thrive because veterinary nurses are such a vital part of the team and making sure that they are being given the opportunities to fully utilise their skills is just, so, so important.

Jill Macdonald (29:51)

Yeah it's been so valuable to hear what people are actually in the front line of the veterinary profession, what their thoughts and feelings are on how we can make these changes. And it's certainly not all been negative. A lot of them had some really positive thoughts to bring along that help us see how we can actually make this change happen.

Abi Judd-English (30:10)

Yeah, it's people just bringing fresh ideas and new perspectives. And that's why we want to engage with as many different people as possible, isn't it? It's getting those new ideas coming from everywhere, from across the profession. Jules, why is VN Vision so important for the professions right now, in the current climate? Because I know we obviously, well, you have the chat with Ben and Belinda just now sort of legislative reform, that is hard to get out. So yeah could you expand on that a little bit at all please?

Julie Dugmore (30:35)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, as I'm sure all of the listeners know, we are going through a very exciting period of change at the moment with the legislative reform, the consultation that DEFRA has currently got out, which closes on the 25th of March and if we get the changes that we are hoping we will get then it's really important that vets are comfortable and happy to delegate to their nurses and that nurses are empowered to ask for that delegation. At the moment, when you're on the register, you can be delegated to so long as the veterinary surgeon feels that you are confident, that you're competent, and that you as the nurse are happy to take that delegation on.

Moving forward with new legislation, hopefully the RCVS will be able to set the scope of practice and the amount of autonomy that might go with certain skills. So there will still be that element of delegation. So vets will still need to understand the skill sets of their nurses to be able to confidently and happily delegate and nurses will still need to take on that delegation and be empowered to do so.

Hopefully, I think we said when we were chatting to Ben, we're looking at the potential for your general practitioner, your enhanced, your advanced potentially prescriber roles. So it's a real exciting time at the moment for veterinary nurses that we need to embrace and we need to make sure that the profession is ready for and that the nurses are empowered to take that on.

Abi Judd-English (32:14)

Yeah, for sure. Completely agree with that. Yeah, brilliant project once again, so I can say. So, Jill, from your perspective, how do you think VN Vision is benefiting veterinary professionals, pet owners and animal welfare overall? It's a big question.

Jill Macdonald (32:32)

It is, it's a huge question and, ultimately we won't know the answer to that until we have, rolled out the project and it's actually happening within practice, but we've got really cohesive collaborative teams within practice that are all working together really closely and making much more effective, efficient use of each person's skills, that's going to result in more efficient practice. You know, there's potentially more opportunities for development for veterinary nurses, but also for nursing assistants and for veterinary surgeons as well. One of the things that's come out quite a lot when we've been talking to vets and nurses that are working really effectively as a team, is that it's not just the role satisfaction of veterinary nurses that benefits, it's the role satisfaction of the vets who are working alongside those nurses, because they're not taking all of the stress of seeing these sick patients and trying to catch up with routine appointments. The nurses are taking on a lot of those more routine areas of work and the vets have more time to focus on the more difficult cases and to dedicate their time and skill to that.

I think client experience as well, a lot of nurses are saying to us that where they're performing a more supportive role in practice, a more integrated role, that the clients really appreciate that. They really like to see veterinary nurses for more routine appointments, whether that be a booster or a recheck of an ear problem or something and they trust them. They feel able to talk to them. That's going to increase accessibility to veterinary care, improve patient outcomes. You know, patients are going to get seen quicker. And less stress, I think, across the profession. Improve mental health, because it's kind of like sharing the workload across that team.

Abi Judd-English (34:26)

Yeah, for sure. Because I mean, obviously it's called the VN Vision project, but it's not just about VNs is it? It's about the whole team efficiency and improving the sector for the better and making sure that we can continue to get stronger and move forward. So yeah, really key point there, I think, Jill. I know you're both obviously, fresh back from Leeds after coming down the M1 this afternoon from your most recent VN Vision session.

So how can people get involved and what should people be looking out for?

Jill Macdonald (34:53)

Our next sort of key step is going to be pulling all that data together and performing thematic analysis on it, working out what the key themes are, which we already have sort of some idea of because the data has shown some very definite clear trends. From that, we will develop a theory of change and then we will put that out for consultation to the professions.

So that is probably one of the key areas where people will be able to get involved. We're not gonna make it a big, huge, long, arduous consultation. It's gonna be a really nice, snappy, you know, this is what we're looking at. How does this look to you? How do you think this feels? Is this something that's achievable? And then further to that, we'll be looking at what the actual activities are, the key activities and resources that we need to develop to support the profession. So we will undoubtedly get the profession involved at that stage as well. So couple of key areas there where people can get involved and have their input, definitely.

Abi Judd-English (35:52)

Yeah, so thanks, Jill. So we'll obviously as well, we can put a link in the show notes to all of the VN Vision resources, including the snapshot report and any upcoming events so people can find out more information about the project. But yeah, I don't know if there's any final thoughts either of you wanted to add?

Jill Macdonald (36:08)

So just what you were saying then, Abi, about if people want to get involved, they can contact us directly via our dedicated VN Vision email address, which is [email protected]. So if you could put that in the notes as well, Abi, that would be brilliant. And if anyone's got any questions or comments or feedback on any of the workshops they've attended, then we'd be very happy to hear from them.

Abi Judd-English (36:32)

Perfect, will do. Thank you very much, Jill, and thanks Jules as well for your time this afternoon. You're welcome. Look forward to chatting about more VN Vision stuff soon.

Jill Macdonald (36:41)

Hopefully so, yeah. Thanks, Abi.

Abi Judd-English (36:58)

If you have any questions or queries about any of the content discussed today or any ideas for future podcast content, please get in touch at [email protected]. Many thanks to our fabulous guests today for sharing their invaluable expertise with us. And thanks to you, our listeners, for joining us today in tuning into this episode of the RCVS podcast. As always, we've provided a range of links to related content from today's chats in the show notes, so be sure to check these out.

And finally, because one final plug never hurt anyone, please do take the time to complete the DEFRA consultation if you haven't already done so. This is a once in a generation opportunity to have your say on the future of the professions. Many thanks and have a great week.