Let’s Talk Adjustments

Good afternoon everybody, welcome to our session on reasonable adjustments. We're delighted to have so many people here who can join us for today's session. We are going to be recording this, so if you've got colleagues or friends who weren't able to make it, then the recording will be available later on, and we will share that with everybody who has signed up as well as putting it on our website, etc.

So a really warm welcome to those of you who are joining us. A little bit of housekeeping while everybody starts to fill in, but just a quick one, mostly about mute and keeping on mute. We're really pleased to have lots of people here, but we need to make sure that the recording goes well and that everybody can hear everything that our expert panel have got to say. So if you could keep yourselves on mute, then that would be much appreciated. You're very welcome to be camera on, but equally if you'd prefer to be camera off, that's absolutely fine, that's not a problem.

For those of you who submitted questions in advance, thank you. We had so many, it was really positive to see so much engagement with this. What we've had to do, because there are so many, is we've merged some of them together so that we can try and cover as much ground as possible. So if the question that you were expecting to be shared isn't exactly the same as the one that you submitted, then please don't worry. This is, we can bring so many together and lots of them were very similar.

There are some other questions that have come through that aren't necessarily what this panel is going to be discussing. So we have referred some of those questions to other teams within the college, and we will come back to you individually if there is something that we need to share. We've had a really broad range of people who've signed up here today, which is something that we're really pleased to see. So we are going to ask you a couple of questions about yourself in a moment, and we would love to hear your experiences in the chat. If you'd like to introduce yourself, if you'd like to share comments, then please feel free to do so.

We've had a lot of people join us from the education sector, which is really positive. The focus for today is thinking about the workplace, so what we are going to share with you in the chat is a link to our newly published reasonable adjustments in education content. So our vet nursing team and our education team have been looking at how to improve the experiences for undergraduate vets and nurses. So that document will be available to you so that you can start to do that, and we have shared your questions with those teams as well. So that's just to say that the focus of this is thinking about employed members of staff or volunteers, rather than the student side for today, because sadly we haven't got that long. We've only got an hour and we've got quite a lot to get to.

There might be some tough stuff being discussed today, and it's important to make sure that this is a welcoming and friendly and safe space for people. So you are very welcome to share your experiences in the chat, but we'd prefer it if you didn't put any really personal details in there or name organisations, etc., just to make sure that we can keep everybody as safe as possible.

If there is any of this content that is proving really difficult, then please make sure that you look after yourself. That is the priority here. We will put signposting in the chat for VetLife, for Mind and for other organisations. So if you do need to leave, then please do look after yourself, but equally if you can just pop one of the organisers a message just to say that you're leaving, then that would be good for us to know that we can check in on you later if you would like us to do so.

The email address for our team advancement is also going in the chat, so if there's anything specific after the event that you'd like to talk to us about, then please do.

So we are just about to ask you a couple of questions on Slido. One will pop up just in a moment, but some introductions because I've been talking at you for a moment or two and you don't know who I am. So I'm Angharad and I am director for advancement of the professions here at the RCVS. I have been here for a couple of years, and I have the pleasure of working with a wonderful team. I have Gurpreet and Lloyd here today who have been part of this work stream. They look after EDI and leadership, so they are the dream team behind this. But we also have other members of our team as well, representing Mind Matters, workforce, etc.

So I am going to ask our panel to introduce themselves very briefly so that you know who you've got. But if you can see the Slido on the screen, then we'd really love for you to share your knowledge so that our panel can have a bit more insight as to what you know. And if you want to add any comments to that, perhaps any examples of training or courses or anything like that, then please feel free to put those in the chat as well.

So Jenny, you're up first on my screen. Would you like to introduce yourself, please?

Jenny: Yeah, so I'm Jenny Seward. I'm a veterinary surgeon and clinical director based in South Wales. I've been director now for 2 or 3 years, and kind of my background with chronic illness. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia about 12 years ago now, and so kind of I've been through the readjustment side of things, both as an employee, and then obviously kind of in more recent years as a director, kind of from a management point of view as well. So you've learned a few lessons along the way and hopefully help share those a bit.

Angharad: Absolutely, it's great to have you with us, Jenny, thank you. Elinor, you're up next.

Elinor: Hello everyone, I'm Elinor O'Connor. I'm a professor of work psychology at the University of Manchester. I have a particular interest in well-being at work, specifically in the context of the veterinary profession, and over the last few years I've been involved in a number of research activities and also projects with the RCVS looking at wellbeing in the veterinary workplace.

Angharad: Thank you, Charlotte.

Charlotte: Hi everyone, I'm Charlotte Pace, and I have been a veterinary nurse for 25 years now, and I have been, I've worked in education, but I've also worked in first opinion practice and referral as well. And I am here because I have suffered with depression and anxiety my whole life, and that obviously has affected my work.

Angharad: Absolutely, thank you, Charlotte for joining us. And Jo, the last member of our panel.

Jo: Hello everyone. My name is Jo Daniels. I'm a clinical psychologist and academic researcher at the University of Bath. Clinically I work with people who've got all kinds of different health difficulties, and my area of research is workforce well-being and retention. So hoping to talk to you with both of my hats on today.

Angharad: Excellent. Multiple hat wearing is absolutely encouraged. Are we all OK? Excellent, lovely. So thank you for those who have submitted your answers to the first question. Are we able to see the answers, please? Lovely. OK, so we've got a really mixed bag in here, but the resounding score is 3.1, so thank you all for sharing that. I think that's a good thing that we've got lots of people here who are keen to learn and hopefully lots of people who can share their experiences with everybody as well.

The next question please. So just a quick one to see if you're responsible for leading people, managing people. You don't have to have manager in your title. We know that a lot of people are leaders of people without having a formal title, so if you're able to share with us, it would be really great to see who we've got here. And could we start showing the answers to this one, please? I'm conscious that we're a couple of minutes. Lovely. Oh, brilliant, so we've got lots of people who are looking after other people in their workplaces. That's really good news, so hopefully this will mean that we've got lots of people who are keen and can take this learning back.

What we have done is we've made sure that we've got both elements of this considered. So yes, right, OK, thank you all for sharing. I've got a couple of slides to share with you just to give you a little bit of background and then we'll jump into the panel session. So if I could have the first slide please, then that would be super.

Thank you, so just a little bit of a background into why are we here and what are we doing. Hopefully many of you have seen the Let's Talk Adjustments campaign that we've been running for the last few months. It's a piece of work that the team are really proud of and has been something that has had many of our team members participate across the RCVS.

The DCIS survey that came out last year was a groundbreaking piece of research. It was the first of its kind from a veterinary perspective anywhere in the world. So we were really, really proud of this and the work that we did with BVA to get this to this stage so that we could shine a light on the experiences that people were having and try and understand what the ground was looking like.

The thing that came out of it really comprehensively was the fact that reasonable adjustments in the veterinary workplaces was an area that people had not a huge amount of knowledge on or not a huge amount of confidence and was something that needed to be explored in more detail. So it was a good starting point for us to go, what do we do next?

Almost half of the respondents with disabilities or chronic conditions had also not been provided with a reasonable adjustment, which was something that needs to be discussed. And 36% of those who were currently in work said that they had encountered barriers to getting that support and help along the way, which again is a large number of people and potentially higher considering the number of people that might not have responded to the survey.

And people very kindly shared some of their stories with us. Some of those were really positive in terms of the support that they had had, some of those less positive. But we are extremely grateful for people to share those with us because otherwise we wouldn't have an understanding as to what people were experiencing and where we as an organisation can step in and provide some guidance and support.

So we launched the Let's Talk Adjustments campaign in February, and it's very specific to the veterinary workplace, the employed workplace, so that we could start with that group there. We have since published a student version of the DCIS, and we also have, for those of you who joined maybe a little bit later, I mentioned earlier that we've got an educational version of reasonable adjustments as well that's come from our education and vet nursing teams that look at the student experience as well. So this piece of work has been a massive catalyst.

If I could have the next slide please. So what has the campaign been made up of? Well, many of you might have seen our social media elements, and that has been across all the different platforms that we work with in a bid to make sure that we can get people to see the content from different perspectives, see the comments that are shared and hopefully raise awareness and decrease stigma in terms of even talking about these topics. But we also have a web page that's dedicated, so if you click on the or use your phone to get the QR code, then that will take you over to the website so that you can see a lot more.

The elements of the campaign have been integral from a co-creation perspective. We are very keen to ensure that it's not a didactic approach and that we engage with people who are sharing their lived experience so that we can make sure that this is as accessible as possible and also that we can highlight the different situations that people might find themselves living through. So we are extremely grateful to those people who have participated.

If I could have the next slide please. So a little bit more on that content co-creation. What you'll see on the website currently is 12 stories that have been brought to life by real vets and nurses who have very kindly shared their case studies with us. So we've got 5 case studies, 5 blogs, and 2 interviews. So there's a different approach that has been taken.

Some of that content has come from a manager perspective as well, because from the survey we were obviously aware of the worry and the real positive desire to help, but the worry perhaps overtaking that sometimes. So we wanted to make sure that the manager perspective was in there so that we could help open up this conversation as well, and we will come to a couple of questions about that experience in our panel discussion.

We've tried to include a really broad range of chronic health conditions, so we have endometriosis, fibromyalgia, we've got very different physical experiences that people are facing. So hopefully in there it will give you a good insight as to some of the reasonable adjustments that are in place for conditions that you perhaps have not heard of or experienced, but equally, if it's something that resonates with you, then hopefully that will also help you see that there are other people who are also finding a pathway through this.

So this is something that I would absolutely encourage you to take a look through. You don't have to read it all at once, and there is a lot in there, but it's a really good opportunity to think about how we might be able to learn. And just a brief reminder that this does count as CPD, so you can reflect on it and think about what this might mean to you, whether you lead people or not. But if you're a peer to somebody else, then this is a really good opportunity to look at how we can support each other.

Can I have the next slide, please? Thank you. So just a couple of comments here on some of the key themes that came through. You can see some of these on the screen here and hopefully we will be able to bring some of this to life in the panel discussion.

I think the fact that they're dynamic and unpredictable is something that for those people who have lived with any level of chronic illness, disability, mental health or neurodivergence, that's something that's extremely apparent to anybody living through this. But for many other people who haven't had that experience, this can be a bit of a surprise that things aren't static. So it's a really good reminder to think about how somebody's condition might develop or change over time, and we will run through a bit more of that with our panel as well.

The intersection between chronic illness, mental health, and reasonable adjustments, there's some really thought provoking content in some of the blogs. But I think it's really important to recognise that somebody living with a chronic health issue is also going to be experiencing the impact that that has on their mental health, their professional identity, how they feel about being in the workplace or not being in the workplace, perhaps because they can't physically be part of the workforce. So it's a really important thing to consider not just the physical experience that somebody might be having, but also the mental health side of things as well. And also the impact that that has on managers who are trying to do their best but need more help and support to make that happen as well.

We're not just talking about the physical environment. We'll get to some of that later, but I think it can't be underestimated the impact that support and empathy from a line manager can have on people. So it's not just about physical elements, it's not just about box ticking, it's about looking at the person holistically.

Knowing what adjustments people need, for many people, they will become an expert in their own condition or their own experience. But for somebody who's perhaps early on in their diagnosis or is experiencing something for the first time within their workplace, it's sometimes hard to know exactly what this might look like. And we did have lots of questions come through about what do I ask for this condition. So I think it's an important one to flag that this is sometimes a bit of an unknown, and the conversation that can come to that might be a bit of trial and error. But equally is a really good opportunity to open up and think about what should be considered and coming back to the fact that conditions are dynamic and unpredictable.

And then finally, open communication. That's a really good element to have within a team generally. Psychological safety, civility, all important concepts within our team structures. But having those conversations is something that is integral to us being able to move this forward. And that sort of spins wider into the role of peer support and support groups, that those open communication channels and where people get their support from, especially if it's other people who might be experiencing or have experience, and the value that that can bring. And we are very grateful to our case study folk who have shared this content with us, because it is very personal, but it's a way of being able to help other people.

So next slide please. I think we are at the conclusion, and then I will stop talking and we'll get to our experts. So the campaign has been a really well received campaign. We've had lots of positive feedback on it. It's not over yet, there is still more to come. But I think it's a really good opportunity for us to look at what has happened and where the potential is for there to be change. And for the fact that we have so many people here today, I think is testament to that.

So thinking about listening, empathy, providing ongoing support and thinking about what those questions might be, let's move on to our panel, and then we can get to answering some of those questions that people have submitted and hopefully busting a few myths along the way. So if we can get our speakers up there, lovely, thank you.

Panel Discussion - Common Myths and Misconceptions

So we have our first couple of questions here. So Elinor, I'd like to come to you first to talk about some of the common myths and misconceptions, not that I can speak today, that people might have about reasonable adjustments. Would you be happy to share a couple of those with us, please?

Elinor: Sure, Angharad indeed. I mean, I think the reality is there are an awful lot of myths out there, a lot of sort of misunderstandings and misconceptions relating to adjustments at work. And I'm just gonna pick two that I'm going to look at.

The first is really thinking about adjustments from the employer's perspective, from the manager's perspectives. And obviously we've got about 2/3, I think of our attendees here today are in management positions. I think a really important myth to bust is the idea that employers have to go to absolutely extraordinary lengths to implement adjustments, and quite often this is something that employers worry about and equally they feel that it's not necessarily, if you like, appropriate to be voicing those concerns.

I think it's useful to think first of all in busting this myth to think about the legal requirements. And the equality legislation is clear that if you are an employer and an employee tells you that they have a disability or you have very good reason to suspect they have a disability, you are required to consider putting into place reasonable adjustments. Now the term reasonable in the context of adjustments, that has a very distinct legal meaning. And it is about adjustments that are reasonable from the employer's perspective. So that's what we mean by reasonable adjustment.

So that means that although employers are required to consider adjustments and to make adjustments that are reasonable, they are not required to put into place adjustments that, for example, are totally impractical for them or that indeed are particularly expensive that are essentially you know not reasonable either from a practicality point of view or from a cost perspective. So there are limits on the expectations that are placed on, sorry, placed on employers from a legal perspective.

I think the other side of that coin is for employers to be aware that very often adjustments can actually just involve very small changes at work. So we think of adjustments often in terms of physical changes to the workplace, and include those sort of things, you know, maybe installing ramps to give access to the workplace, perhaps providing assistive technology or specialist equipment. But I think more often adjustments at work are about changes to working practices, and they can often be just quite small changes. It might be for an individual person thinking about changing their work start times and their finish times. And I think also important to remember too that if an employer puts into place adjustments, those adjustments can often quite reasonably be time limited. They're not necessarily going to be permanent changes. It just might be perhaps somebody has a flare up in a condition that those adjustments are required.

So I think it's important from the perspective of employers to understand that, you know, they're not required to go to absolutely extraordinary lengths to put adjustments in place.

I think the second myth that is worth considering is more from the perspective of an employee, a worker who has a condition of some sort. And again, the law is quite clear that you don't necessarily need a formal diagnosis of a disability to be able to request adjustments. If you go to an employer and you ask for adjustments to be put into place and you don't have a formal diagnosis, the employer can ask for some medical evidence, maybe a letter from your GP or if you're in the process of being investigated and you don't have a diagnosis yet, just some background information so they can request that. But you don't actually need to have a formal diagnosis to request adjustments to be put in place.

Angharad: I think that's a really important thing to highlight for many people who shared in the disability and chronic illness surveys that they hadn't got that diagnosis yet, and they weren't too sure when that might occur. And diagnosis is almost a privilege to be able to get to that stage because sometimes it's just very difficult with waiting lists, with time, with ability to participate in this process. So I think that's a really springboard for us to contemplate on today. So thank you for that.

Starting the Conversation

So many people were asking us about how do we start this conversation, you know, as an employee. What do we do, how do they prepare for that first conversation with their line manager? And I think that this one is a really hard one, isn't it, to reach out for help sometimes. So conscious that we might be dealing with a few different elements here.

Jo, would you be happy to start this conversation going as to what people need to think about?

Jo: I'd advise people really to start by thinking about what their needs are. So that sounds really simple, but it's best rather than to approach the employer, but just to take some time to think about how you feel that your difficulties are affecting you in the workplace. And that can be done with peers and colleagues if you feel comfortable to do that, to think about what is your role and the expectations of your role and what is it that you're finding most difficult.

So I definitely say that that's the first thing, to start to think about because that will give you the confidence then to be able to ask for something specific. And while the onus really isn't on the employee completely to understand exactly what they need, it's certainly really only you know your difficulties, and only you know how you're affected at work.

I think one of the main barriers to people talking about the, sorry, employers or line managers is how they feel about it. So very often people feel like they're not disabled enough or they're not unwell enough or they don't have a diagnosis. So keeping in mind those myths. And also using the resources that we talked about today and really understanding that this is about creating an equal playing field to be able to support you to do your job effectively. And that actually there are lots of people in the workplace who are finding things difficult, who have reasonable adjustments that might not be visible.

And then I'd speak to the employer. It's really important that these issues are dealt with very sensitively. If we create an inclusive work environment, it will make it so much easier for employees to come and discuss these matters with their leads, with their team managers, and creating a psychologically safe space to do that. And you can do that by talking about mental health, issues relating to health and disability and neurodiversity in common parlance so that people see that actually it's acceptable to talk about these kinds of things.

So really just thinking about what are the barriers to talking to your line manager, whether that's emotional, whether it's found knowledge, and then on the other side of that, the employer creating that space and then coming together.

I think it's also important to bear in mind that it's difficult. Most people that I've talked to about this find it difficult to ask for help. We all do really at times. And so just bearing in mind holding that and remembering that fear really doesn't mean to stop, it just means to proceed with caution. And that actually you are entitled as anybody else to get your needs met, to be supported to work effectively in a job that you can enjoy and have a fulfilling work life and be satisfied with that.

So for me, I think the key barrier is always about accepting that actually you're entitled to have that conversation. How much of that translates is a different thing. But really, I would encourage anybody who would like to start that conversation just to open up that conversation. It doesn't mean that you have to commit any long term changes or commit to any changes, but just to start having that conversation.

Angharad: Absolutely, thank you, Jo, for framing it in that way. Jenny, can I come to you just to think about, I know that people have often shared with us that they're in a really busy practice, finding the right time is hard. What would your reflections and advice be on how to have that conversation when it is just really busy, everybody feels like it's too hard to start that conversation?

Jenny: Yeah, I think it obviously depends a little bit on your relationship with your line manager and kind of what's gone before. I mean, you'd like to think that there are a lot of people, by the time they get to thinking about reasonable adjustments, they've already had odd conversations about things going on with their manager. But obviously, for some people, it might be the first kind of time they've spoken to them about it.

So really, it's trying to make sure that between you and your manager you can put some time aside, because it's not a conversation that you want to try and have in that two-minute gap between consults or between ops. You want to be able to sit down somewhere where you can kind of discuss it properly and have that conversation. So it might just be a case of initially just saying to them, I need to have a conversation with you. Can we put something in the diary for this week or for next week?

And you know, if they already know bits about your condition, that, you know, potentially that gives them time to research what they feel might be helpful adjustments to you, because they may not have noticed things that you're struggling with that you haven't really considered. And equally, it gives you a chance to go and get your mind around it and come kind of prepared with what you think as well.

And I think it's probably useful to kind of not just turn around to your manager and say, I think I need X, Y, and Z. But if you're happy to be open enough to give them the why behind that, it'll help them kind of understand, because what you think you want might be really, really difficult for them to achieve. But if they can understand why, they can hopefully then have that conversation with you and work around. Is there some middle ground we can come to that's gonna help support you, but it's not gonna kind of be onerous in the business at the same time. And I mean, we can keep moving forward. So it's just trying to find that middle ground, but making sure you've got time to have that conversation. And, you know, if that means blocking out a couple of consults or something like that, then that's what needs to happen, really.

Angharad: Yeah, I think being prepared for that space and finding that time for both parties is really important. Charlotte, have you got any reflections on that?

Charlotte: Um, yeah, I mean, I completely agree with Jenny that when as an employee that you decide that you are ready to talk to your line manager, that yeah, it does need to be done in a time sensitive and you know like a protected safe space because quite often what's being shared is really quite difficult and challenging.

And I think also just to come back to something that was said a little bit that sometimes it's a good idea obviously if you do know what you need, but sometimes, you know, and this has happened in my life that really you can get into such a state of overwhelm that you actually don't really know what it is that you need. You just, you know, and for me, you know, it has come across sometimes. It's like, well, you know, do I continue being a vet nurse? You know, which has obviously been an integral part of who I am. And so it is, you know, for me, I guess it's always that, and I liked what Jo said about starting that conversation, you know, that it's, you know, that conversation may well be, you know, with a partner or with a friend or with a colleague that you trust, or, you know, some people, it might be, you know, something like Vet Life where you start to have that chat about what, you know, what it is that you might need or yeah, to get your thoughts in a place where you can actually then ask for help.

Angharad: Yeah, absolutely, and being prepared for that, we've put some links in the chat about how people can start to think about those conversations as well. So I think you've raised some really good points there.

Manager's Perspective

Coming to the other side of the table, as it were, and thinking about being a manager, perhaps being approached for the first time about reasonable adjustments. Have you got any advice for managers as to what to do if somebody says I need to talk to you about this? And Elinor, perhaps we can come to you first.

Elinor: Yeah, certainly. I mean I think Jo talked about that idea of psychological safety and I think it's important to remember that with regard to well-being in general and health at work, it's absolutely the case that leaders set the culture that sort of recognises the importance of inclusion and you know good health and well-being at work for everybody, not just when people have long term conditions and have disabilities, but just that general focus on well-being. So it is about making that just part of everyday conversation. And I think that is what that does, it makes it easier for somebody to approach a manager to say that they need to discuss the condition they have or something that's happening to them and to be able to discuss the support they need.

I think the other thing I would say too is that one of the issues with adjustments, and I think this has been touched on, is that you talked about the idea that sometimes people, it was Charlotte who mentioned, sometimes Charlotte said she didn't know what she needed herself, she just knew she didn't feel right, she wasn't feeling well, she had that sense of overwhelm. And it was simply going to her manager and saying, I'm struggling, rather than saying, actually these are the adjustments I need.

So very often people who have conditions themselves, they don't know what adjustments they need, they don't know what form of support they need. And equally for managers, they may think, well, I don't know what adjustments are required. You know, I'm not an expert in this particular condition. And I think what I would try to highlight as being really important here in identifying adjustments is that it's about working in partnership between the employee and their manager. It's to an extent sort of exploring between you, thinking about what might be useful. Neither party may have the answer, might have the solution, but it's about feeling your way.

And of course you can, if your organisation has an occupational health function, certainly draw on those kind of resources to get expert advice. I know many veterinary workplaces don't necessarily have immediate access to an occupational health service, but for example, there is also a government scheme called Access to Work. And that again is a scheme available online where it can provide general advice about adjustments.

And I think the final thing I'd say as well is that in that sense of, you know, feeling your way together, working in partnership to come up with potential adjustments, there's a sense in which it's about trying things to see if they work. So there's an element of trial and error saying, you know, will we perhaps see if how it works if we perhaps try and reduce your workload for a short period, perhaps if we offer you additional breaks, maybe you start a little bit later, finish a bit later. Just even those sort of minor changes to working arrangements and seeing how it goes, and if it makes a difference, fine, but you may need to revisit that. And discontinue things that aren't working, try alternatives. So it is about that partnership working but also drawing on sources of support like occupational health where that's available.

Angharad: Thank you. Jenny, you've obviously moved from the employee side to the manager side as well. Have you got any reflections or thoughts of, I wish you'd done it a bit differently, perhaps, and as a manager now, this is what you would like to have the advice on.

Jenny: Yeah, I mean, I was incredibly lucky when I was first diagnosed. My boss at the time was hugely supportive and basically said, you know, you tell me what you need and I'll do it. So I didn't do any on-call for about a year. I didn't operate for about a year. I had a nurse constantly in with me in consults because I couldn't draw up vaccines on my own because I didn't have the fine motor control and things like that. So I was incredibly lucky I was in that situation, I think.

Kind of the main things really to consider are, I'm not fixating on what you think the solutions are for somebody else. So kind of even, you know, now, after I've lived with fibro for 12 years, what I needed at the time when I was diagnosed and what I need now are probably very different to what the next person with fibro would need. So, you know, I can come with, excuse me, suggestions as to things that might work. But those might not be the things that somebody else is struggling with, and it may be that that's not comfortable to them.

So I think really, kind of going with ideas to a meeting is fantastic, but not going with a hard and fast, this is what is gonna come out of this meeting. And being prepared to really listen to what the person is telling you that they're struggling with. Equally kind of being open and honest with them, and, you know, it's absolutely OK to tell them that you don't have all the answers here and now, especially if they don't know what they need. You know, make a plan with them as to, you know, we're gonna go away, we're gonna research this, we're gonna find some support groups for whatever condition it is that you're struggling with. We're gonna see what other systems other people have come up with.

You know, the veterinary world is a big enough world. There's plenty of people out there that have probably gone through reasonable adjustments for pretty much most conditions. So somebody somewhere is going to have come across this, and if not, the medical world is, you know, a lot of their issues will be transferable across. So it's absolutely OK not to kind of make an agreement as to what the plan is gonna be on day one. Really kind of listening, taking on board the details of what somebody else is telling you, and then deciding how we're gonna approach this, how are we gonna find what works.

And equally, your first set of solutions won't necessarily be the right ones, you know, if you go away and trial them for a few weeks or what have you. If they're not working, you're gonna have to, you know, come back to it and rethink. So these things aren't set in stone. They're gonna be ever changing, they're gonna be ever evolving, and they are going to be very, very individualised, so.

Angharad: Yeah, absolutely. I think that honesty is really integral to this whole process, isn't it, of as a line manager being able to say I don't know, but I will go and find out, I will support you, and I will do my best to learn more and to educate myself and take that burden off the person who is potentially sharing some very sensitive information and experiences with you.

Jo, have you got any other reflections on the employer side?

Jo: I do, taking a slightly different tack. I guess it's important to acknowledge that this is difficult as a manager, and that it will be challenging and to be able to acknowledge that as manager, especially busy managers and leaders, that actually this sometimes can feel like just another thing. And so I do encourage people to do a number of things, take a step back, really, and be empathic and curious. Because very often we can get into a real sort of problem solving mode, which we do need, but also this is gonna be really difficult conversation for that other person, and it may be you've had that conversation before, but every single person that starts that conversation is going to be feeling a bit nervous, a bit uncomfortable, and that it's best to sort of engage that part of us that really cares about that individual and supports them.

I'd always encourage people to, in this sort of situation to use questions, to be Socratic, and use that style really to draw out from that person really what they want to achieve. Again, I think a bit of what's already been said, but make sure that you've had as much training as you need to have and also have your own support, peer support that you can go to because sometimes these things can be really complex. So just thinking about the needs of the manager really as well, and how we can best support them to do their job well.

Angharad: Absolutely, I think the self-care element in there is important, especially if somebody is sharing something that is very distressing or upsetting. Charlotte, have you got any thoughts on that side of things and looking after yourself as a manager?

Charlotte: Um, well, I'm not a manager, but my counsellor head is really very much sort of focused on the looking after yourself. And, you know, it's sometimes, you know, it's boiled down to, you know, if you don't feel great, then have a bubble bath and it's like, well, how is that going to help? But I think, you know, there are things like safety plans and things like that you can have in just as to remind yourself of the things that do bring you happiness or joy, you know, and it's for obviously, because we are veterinary professionals, it's usually our pets. And, you know, so if it's just walking the dog or it's just spending time with the cat or, you know, whatever it might be. That, you know, I think that those kind of things, you know, for us, we do actually have a really good idea of what does actually make us feel good.

I would just like to go back to something that was said, and I promise this will be brief. But also, when we were talking about the line manager and when you approached the line manager from the line manager's perspective, that quite often from an employee, I haven't felt that I've needed my employer, my line manager, to have all the answers. But to just to have an understanding and be empathetic, that to me is really, really important, you know, to say that, you know, I'm coming here and particularly like I said, you know, in my experience, I don't always know what I want. But if somebody can just sit with me and can just basically make that place safe like we've been talking about that psychological safety, then that is absolutely what I would say is needed.

Angharad: I think that's a really important point. I'm very conscious that we're running out of time quite rapidly as suspected, so what I'm going to ask is that if our delegates here have got any questions that you would like to submit, then could you do that now in the chat, please? And I'm going to ask our panel members one quick question about moving forwards and sort of key takeaways.

So Elinor, if I could come to you to that, and then if we've got questions in the chat, then we can come to those before running out of time.

Elinor: Sure, so just to clarify Angharad, is it one key message or a couple?

Angharad: You can have a couple so that people have got a moment to think before they put in the chat.

Elinor: Sure, yeah, I think the key takeaways today really are probably for employers to remember that they don't have to go to extraordinary lengths with adjustments, and this is something I think we've got to be frank about that employers worry about. What we've seen today really is that quite often it can be small changes that are, you know, practical, that are in a sense inexpensive to make. They can make an extraordinary amount of difference.

And also to remember too that quite often adjustments are only required for a short period of time, you know, somebody has a flare up of a condition. Or perhaps it's a relatively short-lived impact they don't need to be permanent changes. And then I think the other key message really here is about that element of partnership working really between the employee who feels they have support needs and the employer, the manager, and neither side may have the answers, but it's about that partnership working together to try and come up with some potential solutions and then giving those potential solutions a go and seeing how they go, and then adjusting.

Questions from the Audience

Angharad: That sounds like very sage advice there, thank you. So we've got a couple of questions that have started to come through, a few looking at a concept that we hear quite frequently when we do these workshops on reasonable adjustments is around fairness and other staff members and how to manage the potential sort of in practice politics or workplace politics that come from this.

I wonder, Jenny, could we come to you first perhaps on this one to think about how to manage that potential friction that might occur when somebody looks like they are getting more than other people or it's not fair to others that they can't have those adjustments in place.

Jenny: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things to remember is that most people that will be in your team will be understanding of these sorts of things, and they will understand that things are put in place for a reason. So, I mean, what I've found over the years is that the majority of team members generally don't bat an eyelid and don't question. You know, they know that somebody else, excuse me, has a chronic condition, and they understand that these things have been put in place to help support them.

Equally things like, I know there was a question about extra breaks that pinged through. You know, you can look at things like, you know, if a team generally gets a 1 hour lunch break, if somebody needs multiple small breaks in a day, well, can you break that hour lunch break into 3 20-minute breaks or 20-minute break and a few extra 10s or what have you, so that the overall time they have in terms of breaks is equivalent. So it's still fair if you want to put it that way, but it's broken up into a way that suits them better.

And obviously, a lot of it depends on the person, you know, concerned, the employee. Are they comfortable with the team knowing about their condition? And obviously, if they are, that makes life an awful lot easier because you can then explain what's going on and explain the whys. If they're not comfortable, then I think generally you need to have a conversation with that employee about, OK, so these are the things we're putting in place. How do you want us to explain this to the team? You know, what do you want us to explain when they're asking us why? You know, we want to give you these, we want to help support you. But we don't want to be lying to the team, and equally, if we're not telling them anything, they're gonna start feeling that you're being made a special case of.

So I think it's having that two-way conversation with the employee, really, and finding how is the comfortable way forward for both of you to approach this with the team. And the vast majority of teams that I've come across are very accepting of kind of these little changes, because it usually is small things, it usually is, you know, a difference in breaks or somebody needs a different chair to be able to sit in, you know, things like that seem quite small to us. It can make a huge difference to somebody that's got chronic pain issues. Do they need a bit of extra support? Do they need a priority list for their jobs for the day on the board and things like that.

So generally speaking, most of these kind of adaptations aren't gonna cause huge conflicts within the team. And generally speaking, you can have just sensible conversations with people as long as the employees are happy for you to be open about it.

Angharad: Yeah, absolutely, I think that's a really good way of approaching this conversation. So hopefully that has helped people with some of those questions that have come through there.

We've got a question about sort of sole working and health and safety. I wonder if we could just... There's a few questions that are sort of merging together around the concept of, not the concept, the pregnancy within the workplace, sole working and health and safety.

I don't know, Elinor, could we just pick your brains on that please, in terms of if somebody is experiencing challenges with perhaps getting their needs met while pregnant in the workplace and they're concerned about health and safety. What do you think they should do?

Elinor: Yeah, I think pregnancy is in law is a separate issue, so under the Equality Act, which protects people from discrimination related to disability, that act separately protects people against discrimination related to pregnancy. So there's very clear guidance, and certainly this is available on the internet. There's very clear guidance about measures that should be put in place when somebody is pregnant.

So my understanding is that if somebody and when somebody informs an employer that they are pregnant, the employer should carry out a risk assessment to ascertain if there are any potential hazards either to the person themselves or indeed of course to the baby. So that should be happening routinely and that, as I say, pregnancy is a protected characteristic under the equality legislation. So if people have concerns about pregnancy specifically, it's sort of separate the issue of disability.

Angharad: Yes, and the HSE, the Health and Safety Executive, they have a risk assessment for pregnancy on their website, so we can make sure that we add that link in when we do the wrap up on this. But good to get people thinking about where things fall in the different sort of legal brackets, I guess.

So we've got lots and lots of questions here. There's another one perhaps that builds on this slightly around childcare and returning to work from maternity leave. I don't know, Jenny, could we come to you on that one if you're able to sort of offer any thoughts from an employer perspective on managing childcare needs and coming back after maternity leave, because we know that it's a difficult thing to do, isn't it, if you've been out of practice for a while, let alone having a small human that you've then got to wrangle.

Jenny: Yeah, so I mean, I guess it will partly depend whether you're looking at something kind of short or longer term. So kind of often, quite a few of our team members that have come back off mat leave have put in a flexible working request, which is obviously kind of a legal process to go through, a month or two before they return, you know, once they know what they're doing with childcare arrangements and all those sorts of things. And obviously, it's a case of working through those and supporting as much as possible. Again, there's this kind of legal frameworks to go through and look at with that if you're looking at sort of having to adapt what they've requested for.

But it's just a case of working down through the options of it. So, you know, obviously, yes, we do need to, you know, adapt where we can and kind of adjust where we can to help them with that. Yes, there will be circumstances when they're gonna need to leave work early because their child's become ill at work and what have you. But from our point of view, that's always been a relatively easy one. Most mums coming back to work want to come back to work. They want to be doing as, you know, bits and pieces and having a, you know, kind of professional conversations and what have you again. And generally speaking, again, most people are pretty reasonable in terms of what they ask for, and obviously if a 20 hours change as a result of a flexible working request and obviously salaries would change at that point as well. But there's nothing to stop them if their childcare then changes a few months down the line, putting in another request and working through again.

Angharad: Yeah, absolutely, and I think looking at sort of flexible working more generally is an area that we're quite interested in. We have got just a plug, a webinar later on in the year looking at modern ways of working and there are increasingly numbers of people, and men and women, it's not a gender specific request, but people who are looking at doing compressed hours, who are looking at term time working, etc. to balance the different needs that they might have for their own health or for childcare or other reasons as well.

And just building on that, there is a question here on reasonable adjustments and whether they should impact pay. So for example, if somebody needs more time or breaks, then this does have a business cost. Elinor, are we able just to come to you for where somebody might be able to seek guidance and support on that question, please?

Elinor: Yeah, I think the whole point of reasonable adjustments is that the person is still able to make a contribution, you know, a fair contribution to the overall workload of the team. They may have slightly different duties either for a short time, they may have slightly more breaks, but overall the purpose of reasonable adjustments really is to ensure the person can work effectively and make a contribution that is broadly equal to other members of the team.

I think, you know, I think the only situation where you potentially see it having an impact on pay is of course for some people with disabilities, they will choose depending on their condition, condition worsens or it's a newly diagnosed condition, what some people choose to do almost as a reasonable adjustment is to move to part time working. And organisations would be, as far as possible would be required to support that even if it's a full-time role and the person wants to move to part-time working, and clearly I suppose if the person were to move to part-time working, then that would be reflected, in you know, pro rata in their salary.

Angharad: Indeed, and I guess it's probably important to mention here that there are resources available for people to look at from a disability allowance perspective, access to work, etc. where there are funding pots available. You can find these through the MMI guides, so we have the stress management guide and we have various others as well. So there is some signposting in those where people can look at those.

We are very quickly now going to have to finish up, but one quick question, Jo, if you wouldn't mind answering this one. Looking at sharing adjustments for people within their workplace, especially if there's health and safety concerns that need to be managed but also balancing this off around confidentiality and respecting somebody's personal situation. Are you able to give any advice for managers or people requesting reasonable adjustments and how to not have to share everything?

Are you asking me around what people should share and how they decide what to share?

Angharad: Yes, potentially that decision making pathway.

Jo: Yeah. I think that people need to hold in mind that they have to choose that balance of you need to provide people with enough information to be able to support you, but also you don't need to make yourself more vulnerable than you do. I think it's important to just be really explicit from the outset in that conversation is that you can, if you forget that you can talk to somebody else first, so you can speak to occupational health, you may have other avenues of accessing support to talk it through first. But be clear in your mind what you'd like to share before that meeting. So think about what feels right to share, and remember that you can also say more later, but the more that you say, the more detail you give, that's usually going to put you in a better position to have your needs understood and met in that workplace. But I always advise having a conversation with somebody first when you're feeling in a calm place and in a place where you're ready to discuss these issues.

Angharad: Absolutely, and I guess Jenny, as a line manager of somebody in practice, you're very conscious of the health and safety implications. Would you say that this is something that can be done together in terms of what information you share with the wider team and how you do that? You would be comfortable as a manager doing that?

Jenny: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think wherever you can, it makes sense from everybody's comfort point of view to speak to these things before the employee. And if, for some reason, if there is a health and safety reason that you need to share something about somebody else's condition, I mean, it's, even if it's something that you feel has to be shared, you need to talk to them about it first. You know, you don't want to be breaking confidentiality without speaking to them. And equally from their point of view, if you had shared something and they weren't aware of it, for them suddenly to be met with that, you know, in the prep room or somebody to bring it up over an operation or something that's gonna put them on the back foot and it's gonna put them in a horrible, horrible situation. And this is all about supporting people, trying to help them move forward and equally just, you know, realising again that relationship between stress and chronic illness is if you're putting them under unnecessary stress if they're suddenly discovering these things out of the blue. That's potentially gonna cause them more issues, so yeah, absolutely talk to them first.

Angharad: Yeah, I think that's really important advice and make sure that this is jointly agreed upon so that everyone can feel confident with where the information is being shared and that they are not being talked about behind their backs, that this is something that people don't feel that their power is being taken away.

Wrap Up

We are not going to get through the last remaining questions, I'm afraid, but thank you all for sharing these. There have been a couple of questions specifically about students and assistance dogs. So what we will do is we will pass these on to the relevant teams and we will look to come back to you. If we don't have your name, then that might be a little bit harder. So if you want to pop a message directly to us at the advancement email address, then we can make sure if there's a very specific question about education that we can get a response for you on that.

But I'm gonna have to wrap up now because I would love to sit here for another couple of hours. I think our panellists have offered a huge amount of wisdom from their lived experience, but also the legal elements and the sort of evidence-based approach. So a huge thank you to you, Charlotte, to Jo, Elinor and Jenny for being part of this today. I know a lot of work has gone into the background, so thank you for doing that.

We have a lot of projects that are going on at the moment, so this will continue. We're looking at health passports both for the workplace and for students. Elinor, you've got a discussion, a guide for discussion that we're going to be publishing by the end of the summer looking at reasonable adjustments, so please stay tuned for that.

We've also got the MMI resources that I mentioned earlier, so looking at guides to anxiety, depression, OCD, PTSD, and stress within the workplace. So those are all available to download now. They have lots of hints and tips and really accessible information. They don't take too long to read. So as a manager, perhaps, pick one of these up and have a read, even if you don't have a colleague who's currently asking for support on this. Because it's really important to start familiarising ourselves with topics that might be a little bit harder and it's best to be prepared before things arise within the workplace.

We've got other projects looking at neurodivergence as well, EDI fundamentals. Somebody asked a question earlier about the academy courses. All of the academy courses are free. We have supporting topics such as unconscious bias and civility within the workplace, so again, a really great opportunity there to get some free CPD on topics that are hugely important and do make a difference every day.

So can I ask for a very, very quick summary from our panel? Is there one thing that you'd just like to say to people before they leave this and then I will do the final wrap up. Charlotte, can I come to you first, please?

Charlotte: Yeah, my one thing would be to talk to people.

Angharad: Yeah, as BT would say, it's good to talk, and it's something that remains ever true. Thank you, Charlotte. Jo.

Jo: Tricky to have one, but what I would say is just remember that it's not all about the physical adaptations and practical adaptations, that this will be something difficult as well. It's normal to struggle when you're not very well, but it's important to do everything you can to get your needs met so you can have a fulfilling work life.

Angharad: Absolutely, very important. Jenny.

Jenny: Yeah, I think similar to Charlotte, it's, you know, be open-minded, keep the communication going, you know, it's a two-way channel if either of you're struggling, line manager or employee, then talk to the other person.

Angharad: Yeah, absolutely. And Elinor.

Elinor: I think it's remembering that adjustments often kind of small changes can make an enormous difference.

Angharad: Yeah, absolutely, it doesn't have to be the moon on a stick, does it? It's something that can be done and starting is better than doing nothing at all.

Well, thank you all so much. We will be sending out a feedback survey to everybody. If you could please participate in that, we would be grateful so that we can learn how we can improve what we could do better next time, potential topics that you'd like us to explore. But also there's an opportunity for you to sign up for us to continue to contact you about these projects that are ongoing.

For those of you who are vets and nurses on our register, we will continue to send out broad communications to you all. But for the wonderful members of the non-clinical team, for our receptionists and practice managers who are here on the call today, we don't have you on a list, we can't contact you, so if you can please say yes to that, then we can continue to share updates on these projects with you, and we can keep that conversation going.

So thank you all so much for joining us. I'm sorry that we've run over by 6 minutes, apologies there for the bad chairing, but there was just so much to get to, and it's been really great to hear everybody and to see the experiences being shared. So hopefully this will give you an opportunity to go back to reflect. Don't forget you can count this as CPD and think about how we can all, how we can all be impactful and make our working lives better for ourselves and for our colleagues as well.

So please take a moment to think about this, think about what you could do, but also if you are currently dealing with this as a particular challenge, then look out for the website and the guides that are on there. There's lots of really useful resources that are all free, they're all evidence based, so you can access those immediately if you do need some support right now.

But thank you all very much, take care and we will see you all very soon. Thank you, bye bye.