Research with Purpose: An RCVS Perspective

Abi Judd-English (00:24)
Hi everyone and welcome to the RCVS podcast. My name is Abi Judd-English and I work in the Communications Team at the College. It's been a while since we last did a podcast and with more activity going on within the College than ever before, we wanted to launch this new version of the RCVS podcast so that you can find out about everything we've got going on in an easy and accessible way. And don't forget all of these episodes also count as CPD, which is always useful for everyone involved.

From events and meetings to important Council decisions and ongoing wider collaborative projects and research, we're here to explain why we do what we do, how we do it, and how we can all work together as we continue to support the advancement of the veterinary professions in our role as a regulator.

Within these episodes, we'll be discussing a variety of topics spanning the work of all College teams with a mix of RCVS staff and external guests getting involved in the conversations.

Each episode will begin with a short news-like segment on College activities before leading on to a longer feature providing an in-depth discussion on a more specific topic.

At the moment, we've got a jam-packed events calendar, so we're going to end today's episode with an overview of all the events we have coming up this autumn, including information on how you can get involved.

In today's main feature, 'Research with purpose: an RCVS perspective', our Research Manager, Vicki Bolton, and Director for the Advancement of the Professions, Angharad Belcher, will be chatting about the integral role of research in supporting veterinary professionals.

In this episode, this will namely be discussed in relation to our ongoing workforce initiative, featuring Vicki's favourite bathtub full of veterinary professionals analogy, as well as busting some common workforce myths. So once again, welcome, and we hope you enjoy our very first revamped episode.
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Abi Judd-English (02:18)
With autumn now well and truly upon us, it's been a busy start to the season.

Last week we had RCVS Council where a decision was made to accredit the new degree offered at Harper and Keele Veterinary School in Staffordshire. This means its graduates will automatically be entitled to join the RCVS Register and practice as veterinary surgeons. Other matters for discussion included an oral report on our operational plan as well as the usual CEO update.

In other news, back in September, we introduced an updated process for the review and accreditation of postgraduate certificates delivered by external organisations, the completion of which would allow veterinary surgeons to apply for advanced practitioner status.

Elsewhere across the College, our reasonable adjustments campaign also came to a close, resulting in a wealth of accessible resources designed specifically for veterinary professionals to support people in having important conversations around reasonable adjustments in the workplace.

The latest news this week is that our honours and awards are also now open for nominations. A highlight in our calendar year, this is fantastic opportunity to recognise and celebrate the work of outstanding veterinary professionals as well as those working in area of animal welfare, going above and beyond to drive the profession forward. So if you know of someone whose work deserves to be shouted about, please do consider nominating them.

A final thing worth noting is that we're formally launching a new WhatsApp broadcast channel to help you keep up to date with everything we've got going on as it happens. We'll be updating the channel with our latest news stories and events, again, to try and make sure that all of our information is as easily accessible as possible.

If you want to find out more about any of these stories, visit our website, a link to which is in the show notes. These will also be included in our monthly edition of RCVS News sent directly to your inbox.
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Angharad Belcher (04:13)
Good afternoon everyone. I'm Angharad and I'm Director for Advancement of the Professions here at the RCVS and today we've got really great topic to be talking about. I'm here with Vicki Bolton. Vicki, would you like to tell us a little bit about what you do here?

Vicki Bolton (04.25)
Hi, I'm the RCVS Research Manager. I've got a background as a statistician so I really love getting into all of the fantastic data that we hold here at RCVS.

Angharad Belcher (04.37)
That sounds like a really interesting job to be able to look at everything from a very different perspective and help us draw things out. But before we get into that, can I ask why are you holding a bathtub?

Vicki Bolton (04.46)
Well, the bathtub is one of my very favourite veterinary metaphors.

It's come from our workforce modelling exercise. Late last year, we published some fantastic work by the IES about the size of the veterinary workforce and predictions for how it will look in the future. And that's veterinary in the broadest sense, that's vet surgeons and vet nurses. And I would like to invite you all, please, to imagine my bathtub and then imagine it full of vets, if you wouldn't mind. So, I have a giant bathtub full of vets.

The tap is on and vets are flowing in to the bathtub as they graduate from vet school. Indeed, nurses are flowing into their very own bathtub as they qualify and they flow into the bathtub. That is the stock of vets or vet nurses. And then they work a full career and at the end of their career, they flow out.

I'm sorry that this is now conjuring the image of vets going down the plug hole. That's really not the intention of the metaphor. Vets flow out of the bathtub at the end of their career sunlit uplands of retirement.

One of the things that the bathtub metaphor helps us with is thinking about the leaks. And it's something that I found when I joined RCVS. There's this idea, it's loose, it's floating around the profession, it's this myth that nearly half of vets leave within five years of qualification. And it's just not true. It's making me crazy. So we've got this myth and if the myth were true, the bathtub would have a gigantic hole in the side and vets would be spilling out all over the floor. Actually, the leaks such as they are really very small, which is why I like to talk about a bathtub rather than a bucket with a hole in the bottom.

Angharad Belcher (06.47)
I think that's a really good analogy here for how we can frame this conversation because workforce modelling is something that as an organisation we've ventured into for the first time over the last 18 months and we do have a great workforce modelling report and all of these are available online and indeed you've done a really great webinar on this.

So I think what we're hearing is that there's lots of frustrations around how we're interpreting the data and what we do with it. But perhaps before we get to looking at the myths, let's start from the beginning. What do we know about the professions at the moment? What can you tell us from what you've learned?

Vicki Bolton (07:22)
Well, in some ways, starting inside RCVS, we have really excellent information about vets in the UK because we know exactly any day how many vets there are registered and how many of those are UK practising. So roughly 30,000 at any one time.

We know quite a lot of things about what percentage of those are women. It's really common knowledge, a higher percentage of vets are female now than in 2017. We're pushing up towards 70 percent although we're not there yet.

We also know that now, compared 2017, more vets are in clinical practice and most of those are doing small animal work.

Angharad Belcher (08:15)
So what would you say to the comment that's often made that it's all the women who are working part time?

Vicki Bolton (08:21)
I think that's a really interesting one. The really big difference in part-time working is among older vets. This data is from the workforce modelling that I mentioned before that IES did for us last year.

We look at full-time equivalence. So a figure of 1 is full-time and a figure of 0.8 is 0.8 of full-time, so four days a week. So the average full-time equivalence for the youngest age group of vets, so those aged under 30, is 0.94 - pretty much all young vets work full time. Whereas if you look at a slightly older age group, say the 50 to 59 age group, on average they're working 0.8, so four days. The difference between men and women isn't nearly so pronounced.

0.84 for women.

0.87 for men.

So women are slightly more likely to work part time, but it's not as pronounced as you might have expected.

Angharad Belcher (09:30)
I think that's quite a good opportunity to consider how we look at how the workforce is made up because what you've been able to show there is that actually focusing on one particular part is missing the rest of the story. Thinking about some of the other myths that we often hear replayed to us, I think one of the popular ones is all the young vets leave. Where are they in your bathtub? Are they floating around with rubber duckies? What's going on with them?

Vicki Bolton (09:55)
It's an interesting one and I know where the myth came from. We did some work in 2021 called Recruitment Retention and Return and we looked at the profile of vets who leave the UK practising category of the Register and it's true that when you look at vets who leave the UK practising category, they do tend to be young. And we know what's happening to those vets, by the way. We know that the vast majority of them are heading off to practise overseas. So this is young vets with a qualification that makes them internationally mobile go and practise somewhere else. And the biggest country from the Recruitment Retention Return work, the biggest destination by numbers, was Australia. Heading off to learn new skills and practice in the sunshine, it sounds like an exciting opportunity rather than something young vets might be driven to.

I'm really looking forward to publishing the results of our exit survey in November when we'll have some more detail from the vets who left the UK Practicing Register. Where they're going and what they're doing and, crucially, how they feel about it, whether they've been pushed or pulled. So if you're heading to LVS in November, I'll be there talking about that and hopefully we'll be able to do another podcast or webinar on the subject.

Angharad Belcher (11:18)
Okay, so can you give us some numbers? Like, are we talking hundreds each year? What's going on with that?

Vicki Bolton (11:23)
There are a couple of different ways of looking at it. When you look percentage of vets who leave the UK Practicing Register every year, 5.8% of the youngest age group of vets leave the Register and that is the highest outflow rate of any of the age groups. Older vets are leaving at, well, this is middle-aged vets, are leaving at more like 3%.

But when we're talking numbers, it's really very small. I've looked at the data for cohorts. So imagine a year's worth of UK vet school graduates. So a year's worth of vets join the Register and you can follow them, you look at them on the Register for the next five years and find out what happened to them and where they went and whether they stayed on the Register.

So if you think about the 2019 cohort, their completed fifth year is the end of 2024. So of that group, 90 % stayed on the UK Practicing Register at the end of five years. So they joined the UK Practicing Register in 2019 and they're still there at the end of 2024. Now you think, actually that's 10 % that have gone missing, but no, of the 10% that are no longer UK practising, the largest chunk are still on the Register as overseas practising. So that reinforces the information that we have from Recruitment, Retention, Return, the largest group who come off the UK Practicing Register heading overseas to practice. There's a very small group who have moved to non-practicing, but when I say very small, that's just 15, one, five, vets. And there are a grand total of 27 for whom we don't know what's happened next. So that's 27 vets from that 2019 cohort of more than 850 aren't on the RCVS Register at all. But we know from other research that almost certainly the vast majority of those 27 are practising overseas and have just chosen not to stay on the Register.

Angharad Belcher (13:49)
I think you've quite comprehensively busted that myth then that we're not keeping hold of people. And I think it's a really positive idea to consider where they're going as well, that you've got the data to go, hey, they're going overseas. And as you say, they're using their vet degree, they're vetting somewhere else in a way that's meeting some of the needs that they have. And hopefully, at some point, they might bring those newly found skills and experiences back into the UK.

You mentioned during that, that we can follow people. Are you able to share a bit of details as to some of your plans as to how we can build up a greater picture of, sort of a longitudinal picture of what's happening?

Vicki Bolton (14:25)
Well, the Register is an absolutely fantastic data source, but it's very simple and factual. On the Register, or off the Register. And a little bit of information about the individual vets on the Register - which vet school or country they qualified in, whether they're male or female, but nothing about how they feel, nothing about their enthusiasms or worries. And so one of the really big projects that we're going to be kicking off next is a cohort study following young vets as they graduate out of UK vet schools. We're going to pick them up as they prepare to graduate and then we'll come back to them every year for five years, and ask them how they're settling into their professional life. What they're most looking forward to about their careers, what they're most worried about, what training they think they would like to have as they start their professional career, how they feel about their CPD and how it's helping them. And it's data that exists in very small quantities, in very small studies. But the exciting thing about the College is that we have the ability to keep in touch with vets over a long period of time as they join the Register and invite them to talk to us and share some of their enthusiasms and worries with us as they start their careers.

Angharad Belcher (15:59)
What a great opportunity to learn more about who's coming through and what their aspirations might be and we will all be able to learn a huge amount from that. Are there any other myths that you would like to bust if you could change people's mind about something with the data that you've got?

Vicki Bolton (16:13)
One of the things that I'd like to talk about is what keeps people engaged. And I think this is super relevant for reports on our website. If you're invited to take part in a research study that'll usually come via email from the College itself. We really need to hear from individuals.

For example, some of you will have received invitations to come and talk to us about what veterinary leadership means to you as a nurse or a vet surgeon and how veterinary leadership needs to develop in the future. Those invitations haven't gone to everybody but if you've received one come and talk to us about the things that are bothering you.

Angharad Belcher (16:57)
Well, you've definitely heard your call to participate in there. And I know that we are always very grateful similarly to you in terms of the folk who participated in the Disability and Chronic Illness Survey. We've learned so much from it. But not only have we learned from it, we've then been able to go forth and do something with it. So with the reasonable adjustments campaign that's come out of the data on that and for us as an organisation being able to know what is impacting people and then being able to do something with it to help is incredibly powerful rather than making assumptions and perhaps utilising those myths that we hear that are potentially sending us in the wrong direction. So coming back to this is why we collect the data, this is why we do something, it's so that we can then use that as our foundation or our evidence.

Vicki Bolton (17:43)
I was just going to leap in at that point and say, I wholeheartedly agree. And I think the myths that we sometimes hear circulate for a reason. So the persistent myth that nearly half of young vets leave before their fifth work anniversary, it must circulate for a reason.

Although we know that young vets stay and that they stay in clinical practice, the fact that the myths circulate means that we want to be looking in more detail at what's actually going on at the feelings behind the myth, what's driving it, what are the concerns of recent graduates coming in and the established vets who are the stock in the bathtub.

Angharad Belcher (18:35)
So we've obviously got our bathtub and we've got our future looking work and activities with this cohort study. I also happen to know that you're quite a big fan of a certain history. And if we talk about James Herriot, that this is a current fascination for you. And there might be people sat here thinking, what's this got to do with where the workforce is today? But you've picked out some interesting highlights of you know, what can we learn from this? What's the continuous thread that runs through it? So tell us, what have you learned and what do you think we need to be talking about?

Vicki Bolton (19:07)
You're right. I have been reading the authorised biography of James Herriot, aka Alf White, written by his son Jim who is also a vet. And as I was reading the book, I was thinking about the myths that swirl around the profession and the legend of James Herriot.

When Alf White, James Herriot, graduated, he graduated into a very hard job market. Most of his friends took veterinary work for bed and board. They didn't have paid work. He looks now incredibly fortunate because he achieved salaried partner status so early in his career, but he would have appeared equally fortunate then.

It wasn't a common experience.

As his career developed, he unfortunately suffered a period of severe mental ill health. So we know from the chronic illness study that you mentioned, Angharad, that mental ill health is something that people in the profession run up against through their careers, but it's not a new thing. White himself had to have some quite severe treatment, but he, as most vets do, managed to stay in practice throughout his illness and treatment and he recovered and continued in his successful career thereafter.

The other parallel is that as he got older he too, like older vets now, dropped down to part time because he could. In his case he was sitting on some really very pleasant royalties which allowed him to reduce his working hours. But vets now know that they need to save to reach a comfortable retirement and as they approach retirement are more likely to be able to afford to cut down their working hours having made financial adjustments early in their careers.

Although it seems as though the Herriot style of veterinary surgeon is a long time ago in a land far, far away. Actually, there are quite a lot of similarities between his career and a modern veterinary career.

Angharad Belcher (21:24)
It does give us a pause for thought then, doesn't it? Thinking about, you know, we know currently the average career length that people spend on the on practising Register, non-practising, etc. So we've got a concept that informs the workforce modelling work. But if we are seeing more less than full-time workers coming through, especially looking at the number of women and time off for maternity leave, etc. , impacting the ability to accrue pensions and that sort of financial stability. It's perhaps a thing that we need to think about as to what's that going to do to somebody's career length and how they do that going forward.

Vicki Bolton (22:00)
It's a really interesting one. If we could predict these big workforce changes, I think we'd be able to make a lot of money on the stock market. So in the workforce modelling, for example, we've had to make some simplifying assumptions because we just can't know for sure what's going to happen over the next 10 years. So the modelling
does assume that the rates of part-time working will increase slightly, but not as fast as they have been increasing over the last five or ten years. But really this kind of future gazing is a difficult thing to do. What we've done in the modelling is make some quite gentle conservative assumptions based on past events projected into the future.

Angharad Belcher (22:47)
Is there anything we can learn from other sectors where other workforce modelling is utilised, do you think?

Vicki Bolton (22:58)
We tend to look to other healthcare professions because that's where veterinary medicine's situated. But the workforce modelling that's done in healthcare is done by and for government looking to fulfill the tasks given to them by the electorate. Whereas as I said, we're a commercial sector. It's businesses. So it's...

Yeah, that's not an easy one to answer.

Angharad Belcher (23:25)
I think what I'm hearing from this though is that there's an ability here to look at it and use it as a tool to go, hey, we know that there are going to be some gaps, but actually the bigger things that we need to think about, going back to your earlier comment, is how people are doing while they're in the career that they're in. And that's perhaps where we have more influence and ability to then use that information to go forth and make those positive changes that are impacting individual lives right now rather than 10 years out because the world could shift quite significantly.

Vicki Bolton (23:55)
We're a professional regulator. So we are regulating individual vets and nurses. And that's where our best information is coming from. And RCVS research can really add value, I think.

Angharad Belcher (24:10)
Thank you for taking us through that. I guess it's important to remember that we've got the webinar and we've got all of the resources online. So please take a look at that. But is there anything final that you'd like to leave people with? What's the one question or one activity that they should think about going forward with how we use this data or where the data comes from?

Vicki Bolton (24:28)
This is probably a little bit optimistic, but what I would like people to take away is the thought of all of these vets and nurses staying in the profession, that actually this is a profession that people work incredibly hard to join, and they stay, they practise, they improve animal welfare. And so the image that I would like people to take away is the image of my bathtubs full of vets and nurses and their careers and how long and successful those careers can be.

Angharad Belcher (25:08)
So the focus we need to have is the fact that we've got lots of great people.

They've got the potential to have potentially multiple careers within their career and that we can use this as our springboard into how do we make things better and how might we change things differently. So thank you Vicki for sharing that insight. I think we've all learned a huge amount from that and we look forward to seeing you present this at LVS and interacting with everybody so that they can have an opportunity to talk to you and learn some more. Thanks

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Abi Judd-English (25:49)
That was a really interesting chat that you've just had with Vicki, Angharad . So I just wanted to ask if there's anything more you can tell us about the workforce project in general within the College and a little bit about the action plan and the webinars that have been going on and the reasons as to why we're doing this, why we're focusing on this now and why it's important.

Angharad Belcher (26:08)
Absolutely, I think the workforce is something that is important to everybody because everybody's part of it. We're two and a half years in now to the workforce action plan and the world has changed still since we wrote that. There are things that have moved and have shifted, but it's a great opportunity for us to reflect on what has happened so far, but also to engage with the professions, with vets, nurses, with the whole veterinary team who are delivering healthcare and non-clinical activities, to look at what is currently on their minds. How are we talking about this and how can we share all of the good work that is happening? Because we have a large number of teams across the organisation. People won't know how we're made up, that we have an Education Team, I'm in Advancement of the Professions. And that all of our colleagues are working really hard. And some of these projects might be impacting a very niche sector, like the OV work or public health, but that is a significant impact overall for that group of people.

It's a chance to highlight some of that activity, bring people in and get that feedback so that we can continue to learn and look at how we talk about things and help people see that there are things that are happening that might not look overly relevant, but when you look at it overall, you can see that each piece plays its part.

So, you know, the action plan, we've got the webinars, we've been out and about at events and we will continue.

So the workforce word sounds perhaps, you know, is it the most exciting thing? But actually it's the integral thing. It's something that we're all wanting to make better and to be part of. And what a great way for us all to do something that will have a lasting impact.

Abi Judd-English (27:48)
For sure. I mean, the workforce, is, that collaborative element, isn't it, that's central to everything that we do here at the College, what professionals are doing out on the ground. And obviously, sounds simple, but the workforce is the workforce. It is going to be the future of the professions so it's so important that we all engage with it and have these cross-industry conversations because yeah, it's not just one thing, is it?

Angharad Belcher (28:12)
It's not, it continues to change and I think at the RCVS that we've got a hugely luxurious position of being able to see everybody and we need to be sharing that with people. We need to help people see what we see so that they can learn from it, but we can learn from them learning from it. And it all comes round together for us to be able to make the most of what we've got.

The data that we have is really good in many places, but there's a lot of other data out there that we need to bring in. We need collaboration and we need a group effort to shift things forward.

Abi Judd-English (28:44)
Yeah, definitely. Completely agree with that. And yeah, thank you so much for your time. It's been really interesting listening to you and Vicki chat this afternoon and obviously having the opportunity to chat to you to kind of sum things up as well and very much looking forward to having more conversations about workforce, both with you and obviously other people within the College externally as well and seeing where things go in the future.

Angharad Belcher (29:04)
Can't wait. I think there's lots to talk about and hopefully those people listening will find it informative but also share their feedback as to where we can pick up new topics.

Abi Judd-English (29:14)
Get involved is the bottom line isn't it? Absolutely. Okay, thanks very much.

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Abi Judd-English (29:32)
We're joined by Deb Rowlanes, who is our Events Manager here at the College. And we've got a lot of events going on this autumn.

Deb has been very, very busy leading the team responsible for delivering all of our events, working with teams within the College to bring these things to life, because it takes a lot of work and working externally with people as well. So welcome, Deb, and looking forward to hearing about everything that we've got going on this autumn.

Deb Rowlanes (29:54)
Thank you for having me. I work with a team of three, so there's four of us delivering out these events. And we've got a huge programme this autumn.

Abi Judd-English (30:03)
So we've got the British Veterinary Nursing Association Congress happening in October. What are we doing there? What have we got going on in the stand and what sort of things are we going to be promoting?

Deb Rowlanes (30:12)
All year round we go to congresses, but during autumn we have a number of events and BVNA is one that we always go to and make sure that we get to speak to the veterinary nurse profession. We'll have a core team of veterinary nurse staff members plus an Academy member who will be talking about our Academy. We'll have a myth busting game, so do come along and play if you're around. And as well as that, we've got two sessions in the scientific programme, one being the clinical supervisor session, and then our second session will be the VN Vision session, the future of team based veterinary healthcare.

I just want to talk to you about the VN Vision sessions because obviously they're going to be at BVNA but we've done quite a lot of work across the year with data gathering from the workshops. We're really encouraging really encouraging veterinary surgeons to take part in these sessions as well. So, if you're at the shows or at any workshops where Vision events, then do come along.

Abi Judd-English (31:11)
So next up we've got our Regional Question Times and obviously these events have been a central part of what we've done for years in terms of engagement with the professions. So can you tell us a little bit more about those for people that perhaps haven't heard of them before and when our next one is going to be taking place?

Deb Rowlanes (31:27)
It's in the name really. So Regional Question Times are run across the country to give an opportunity to speak to our teams, our Officer Team, our President. It's a very informal event, but interactive. We talk to the professions about current activities, projects and initiatives, and it's an opportunity for the profession to then feedback, ask questions and raise any issues or concerns. We usually run about four a year. We've just been to Salisbury and our next one is in October at our head office in Clerkenwell.

Looking forward to 2026 we will be in Scotland and Bristol in the first half of the year and then to be confirmed where we'll be for the rest of the year.

Abi Judd-English (32:08)
Yes, those events, they're a really good opportunity, aren't they, just for people to come and chat to us in an informal environment. Definitely encourage people to look out for what's going on in their area because we're always happy to talk.

Next up, we've also got our online events, because obviously it's great to have in-person events, but also we understand that these things take a lot of time, a lot of effort, and not everyone has the time to be travelling around the country, or even popping into local in-person events can be difficult So we do do quite a lot of online events so that people can just pop in for an hour on their lunch break after work, whatever they might be doing, to fit into their time a little bit better. What online events have we got going on at the moment, Deb?

Deb Rowlanes (32:47)
We've got a number of RCVS Academy sessions. These are free hourly lunchtime sessions. The RCVS Academy is our digital learning platform providing non-clinical content to support professionals with their CPD learning. We're hosting a whole range of topics. Do look out to see what you're interested in and if there's anything that isn't there then come and talk to us and we'll see what we can provide going forward.

We've also got some workforce webinars taking place. And these have stemmed from our workforce modelling report in 2024 where we were looking to address the challenges and how the can collaborate to make a difference.

The two that are coming up will be Ambition 2, Confidence, Culture and Recognition, and in November Ambition 1, Shaping Leaders at All Levels. We try to get a good panel from
across the professions and get a number of outside professionals to feed into the work too. So yeah, do come along and ask questions that you might have.

Abi Judd-English (33:48)
Finally, we've also got London Vet Show, which I'm sure nearly all veterinary professionals are aware of. It's the big thing in the calendar year that everybody goes to. So what are we up to at London Vet Show?

Deb Rowlanes (34:01)
There's lots of things going on. There will be a team of RCVS staff and again, we'll have the Academy there.

Also during the scientific programme we've got a couple of sessions. The first one will be VEXIT, the results of the RCVS Exit Survey. And then our second session will be covering disciplinary cases at the RCVS - dispelling the myths.

Abi Judd-English (34:23)
Great, so we've got a big variety of things going on there then, and I think the thing off the back of all of this really is we definitely want people to come and engage and yeah, there's plenty of places that they can find us this autumn, aren't there? Is there anything else that you'd like to highlight that's going on at the moment?

Deb Rowlanes (34:39)
Yes, we do have a number of tailored and specialised events going on across the country. We've got our Mind Matters Research Symposium, and our International Postgraduate Veterinary Educators Symposium. Got that out! This is then followed by our Fellowship Day where we welcome and induct our 51 new RCVS fellows.

Abi Judd-English (35:02)
Well, thank you very much, Deb, for all that information. It's really insightful and I think it's really good for people to understand just the sheer breadth of stuff that we do across the College So if anybody wants to find out more about these sessions, they can sign up on our events page, which is on our website, and you can find a link to that in the show notes.

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Abi Judd-English (35:36)
So that's a wrap on our first revamped RCVS podcast episode. A big thank you to all of our guests and to you for listening. If you have any questions or suggestions for future content, please don't hesitate to reach out to us on the email address in the show notes, where a link to our events page and workforce page can also be found as well as links to all our most recent news stories.

We've also added a link to our podcast webpage where all podcast episodes will be available to download from now on. Remember to like and subscribe on whatever platform you listen to your podcasts on so that you never miss an episode. And finally, don't forget that listening to this episode counts towards your CPD, so please be sure to record and reflect on the OneCPD app. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time