In this episode, we explore the RCVS VN Vision project and how veterinary nurses can play a greater role in delivering efficient, team-based veterinary care.
Our Veterinary Nursing Progression and Development Lead, Jill Macdonald, is joined by veterinary nurses Carly Blann and Lauren Hargrave to discuss their experiences in practice, the impact of VN Vision, and how veterinary teams can make changes to improve workplace culture, job satisfaction and access to care.
For the second part of the podcast, researchers Dr Jackie Hargreaves and Dr Faye Didymus discuss their work on integrating mental health training into veterinary nursing education, what inspired their research, and their vision for the future of veterinary nursing.
Listen now, or simply search The RCVS Podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Introduction
Abi Judd-English (00:24)
Hi everyone and welcome to the RCVS podcast where we talk to you about everything going on at the college, explaining why we do what we do, how we do it and how we can all work together as we continue to support the advancement of the veterinary professions. I'm Abi Judd-English, a member of the RCVS communications team and today we're going to be chatting about our VN Vision project, exploring the development of the veterinary nurse role and how team-based veterinary healthcare can be reimagined to maximise efficiency, enhance job satisfaction, and improve access to care for animal owners.
For this section of the podcast, we'll be joined by Jill Macdonald, our veterinary nursing and progression development lead, and veterinary nurses, Carly Masters and Lauren Hargrave, who have been supporting this project from the outset and provide a fantastic example of how veterinary nurses can be more effectively integrated into team-based veterinary healthcare. As well as speaking about the VN Vision project, Jill chats to Carly and Lauren about what practice life looks like for them and how others can make similar changes to improve the way their workplace operates.
We also hear briefly from our head of veterinary nursing, Julie Dugmore, who sat in on the chat and has been a key driving force behind VN Vision.
For the second part of the podcast, I'll be joined by researchers Dr Jackie Hargreaves and Dr Faye Didymus who are currently doing research on how to integrate mental health training into veterinary nursing education.
We'll explore what led Jackie and Faye to pursue this research and the previous research they're building on, as well as their hopes for the future of veterinary nurse education.
But first, we have our usual news roundup, keeping you up to date on the goings on across the college.
News update
Abi Judd-English (02:04)
In early July, we welcomed the publication of a White Paper, setting out the Government's proposals for new legislation that would replace the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 and revolutionise veterinary regulation to the benefit of animal health and welfare, the public and the professions.
Following the government's public consultation earlier this year, the publication of the White Paper on 9th July 2026 by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, is another significant milestone on the road to much needed reform of the Veterinary Surgeons Act.
In other news, last month we published our annual report and financial statements for 2025, setting out key achievements and projects from the college throughout the year. This was then formally presented at Royal College Day, our annual general meeting and awards ceremony, on Friday, the 3rd of July at 1 Great George Street, London.
The day also saw the inauguration of our new president, Tim Hutchinson, who, in his speech, identified contextualised care as a solution to the possibility that the veterinary sector may collapse under the weight of complexity.
Among those honoured at our honours and awards ceremony was Professor Lance Lanyon, who received the RCVS Queen's Medal, the highest honour we can bestow upon an individual veterinary surgeon for his academic, research, and management career which included being principal of the Royal Veterinary College from 1989 to 2004, as well as groundbreaking research on bone biology and osteoporosis.
Over in our Fellowship team, RCVS Fellows are currently being invited to stand for election for two positions on the RCVS Fellowship Board.
The positions are: Projects and Engagement Officer for the Board, and Chair of the Fellowship Science Advisory Panel, which is a subgroup of the board.
Any Fellows interested in applying should visit our website for more details, information on which is in the show notes.
Finally, the Academy, our free online learning platform, has launched a new course to support veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses who are called to give evidence as witnesses at an RCVS disciplinary hearing.
The course features content related to the role of a witness before, during and after evidence is given at a hearing, including important information about our disciplinary processes and what to expect on the day.
For more information on all these news stories and more, please visit the News and Views page on our website, the link to which is in the show notes.
VN Vision
Jill Macdonald (04:29)
Hello everybody. My name's Jill, Jill Macdonald, and I am the Progression and Development Lead for Vet Nursing at the RCVS. I'm really excited today to have with me not only my colleague Jules but Lauren and Carly who are going to introduce themselves. So Jules, over to you first, if you give us a quick intro and then we'll go over to Lauren and Carly.
Julie Dugmore (04:53)
Thanks, Jill. Hi everybody, my name is Julie Dugmore. I'm a registered veterinary nurse and I'm Director of Veterinary Nursing at the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.
Carly Masters (05:02)
Hiya, I'm Carly. I'm an RVN and practice owner of a Vets for Pets practice. I've been qualified about 18 years now.
Lauren Hargrave (05:03)
Hi, I'm Lauren Hargrave. I'm an RVN and I work for Carly. I'm people manager at a Vets for Pets practice and RVN and I've been qualified for around six years now.
Jill Macdonald (05:24)
Thank you everyone and it's so nice to hear your voices again, Lauren and Carly. They have been very familiar to me over the past few months and we'll talk about that a bit more later. I should also add I'm an RVN as well.
Okay, so just a brief introduction to the VN Vision project. We started the project back in 2024 gaining a vision for what veterinary nurses want to see in the future of veterinary healthcare across the UK, workshops gained loads of data from that. But from that work, we realised that vet nurses, their skills, their expertise, their experience was still not being fully utilised in practice, and we needed to do some work to find out why that was and what we could do to ensure that veterinary nurses are much better integrated into the practice team. So we've done another series of workshops over the past 12 months. We have just completed data collection on that now.
And we're building a theory of change to help us work out how we tackle this issue. And I kind of want to say once and for all, because it's been going round and round the vet nursing profession for so many years now, we really want to make it work this time. Carly and Lauren have been helping to support us in those workshops, and they have been fantastic. I have to say that, they've been absolutely brilliant. We couldn't have done it without them. And the reason they were there was that when Jules and I were running these workshops, we felt like a lot of people are just not going to really know what good looks like. And they, sort of have an idea of a vision in their head about what integration of vet nurses into the practice looks like, but it might not be broad enough, it might not be ambitious enough. Carly and Lauren work in an amazing way in their practice. And yeah, just tell us a little bit about how did you help us in showing what good looks like, do you think? And tell us a bit more about what you do in practice and how it works for you.
Lauren Hargrave (07:27)
We got in touch initially with Jules because we had some questions about some protocols that we had for our practice and she answered some of our questions but then put us onto the standards team who could tell us legally what we were allowed and what we weren't allowed to do which was really helpful. But basically, what we've been doing is looking at what we can do more as veterinary nurses in terms of how we can work better as a team across the whole practice. So with the vets as well. So we have been expanding our role in surgery and procedures, but also in consultations as well. And I think the consultations is a thing that people are kind of a bit more interested in, because I think that people know that nurses can do schedule three. I don't think most do, but I think people know that it's a thing that you can do. But I think the consultation side of things, think people kind of put veterinary nurses in a box of what they can do and then vets are in a box of what they can do and we tried to make it a little bit more fluid so we kind of really work together a team that seems to work quite well. So I don't know, Carly, if you want to say about what consults we do.
Carly Masters (08:41)
Yeah I mean for us, it's more kind of who is the right person for the job rather than the job role they have, so we just try and work as efficiently as a team as we can. So the kind of consultations we're currently carrying out, we're doing booster vaccinations, lump checks, wound checks, ear checks so it's a way just to try and spread the workloads evenly throughout the team.
Our vets still do those consultations as well, but we just spread them out so the whole team are getting involved in the process. Surgeries we carry out, we will do lump removal, stitch-ups, ear flushes, we'll do all of the x-rays, most of the ultrasounds. We carry out stage one dentals where it involves full mouth charting, x-rays, scale and polish.
And then we work in collaboration with the vet. So the vet will come out of the consultation, review the x-rays, and then give us more of an indication of the extractions that are required and then where we're gonna go from there.
Lauren Hargrave (09:45)
We also do things like unblocking male cats. And I mean, at the moment, time of year is a lot of grass seeds. There's so many grass seeds at the moment that we seem to be plucking out of ears. But it's basically kind of trying to work a bit more fluidly and working together. And I think when we say what we do, people are a bit taken aback and they think, well, you can't do that. But there are ways that you can do it. And it's not just us doing this on our own.
Jill Macdonald (10:15)
Yeah, thank thanks both. It always amazes me just to hear the breadth of stuff that you do in practice. And like you say, a lot of people probably listen to that and think, but surely a nurse can't do that. But it is just about having those understandings and discussions in practice, isn't it, that sort of sit behind that and form a foundation for it. I just wanted to sort of hone in on the consultation thing because I think you're right. I think everybody knows about Schedule Three and surgery, but that's still probably the first thing that people think about when they think about nurses doing more in practice. They think, well, what surgery can we do that's more than what we're already doing, if they're doing anything. But actually I agree with you. I think it's a consultation, client support, client interaction side of things that's just so valuable and that we can do so much more in. Do you agree with that? And how does that sit within your practice? How does that work with your clients? Do your other nurses do those consultations as well?
Carly Masters (11:14)
Yeah, so we started gradually with the consultations. We didn't just jump into the full list that we currently do. We just started off by having just Lauren and I doing booster vaccinations to start with and initially we had the discussion with our own vets just to see what they were happy with. Went to them with our plan. And they agreed we sat down with them, wrote our protocols and then we started doing the booster vaccinations for animals of three years and under. So it's just a way just to kind of get a feel for it, make sure that it worked for us in our practice. and we had really good uptake from the clients. We would always let the clients know that they were seeing a senior nurse, and they were more than happy to come in and see us. They were getting the same service, the full clinical exam, and then the booster vaccination administered.
And it kind of works similar to a second vaccination. The second vaccination is prescribed at the first vaccination. So the nurse would always do a full clinical exam. If anything was highlighted from that, we would always stop and then get more information from the vet as to if the vaccination can be given. And that's the process we do with the booster vaccination. So it's pre-prescribed by the vet in the morning, and we follow our protocols we've got in place.
If anything is highlighted as a result of the clinical exam, we will then pause, go and speak to the vet, and then just get a bit more information as to if the vaccination can go ahead on that day.
We then started to build on that list, so I think with anything new that you start, it's always best to start small and then build on that gradually. I think if you just start by doing a massive list of consultations, you're almost setting yourself up for failure because it's gonna be too complicated. If there's too many people involved. So start small and then you can gradually build on that over time.
Lauren Hargrave(13:01)
I think the important thing to say here is that when we say we do boosters or we say that we do other consultations, people are mostly taken aback because they sort of say, how is this allowed? And they ask a lot of questions about how we've gone about it. And every practice is different and every practice protocol will be different. But the important thing to kind of clarify here is that we are following the under care guidelines and we sent our protocols to the standards team to just make sure that we were within the guidelines.
Jill Macdonald (13:39)
So we know that the under care guidance was updated some time ago and that also opens up opportunities for veterinary nurses and integrating them more into veterinary healthcare delivery. So Lauren and Carly, just tell me about how you've sort of interpreted under care and how you've used that in the way you approach cases and your nursing.
Lauren Hargrave (14:01)
Yeah, so I think I don't know, but I think the under care guidance was updated more for kind of the telemedicine side of things to allow vets to remotely prescribe via the video links and things like that and what they can and can't prescribe without an examination. However, as a side effect of that, it's opened up opportunities for veterinary nurses.
It's really broadened what we can do in practice. So it only changed in 2023 and not everybody knows about it. So quite a lot of people, when they ask us about under care, they say, well, hasn't the vet got to examine the patient for the booster? Hasn't the vet got to examine for XYZ? And actually the answer is not always yes.
It is sometimes, and I'm sure we're all aware that the vet has to examine for antimicrobials, antifungals, antiparasitics and our controlled drugs. But for other things, for example, a booster vaccination, the vet can remote prescribe. So the way that we do it and that might be different from how another practice might do it, would be that our vets have a look in the morning at what appointments we have coming in and they will look at what vaccination they are due and they will prescribe it. We'll have a discussion about the patient and they will review any clinical history and we'll review it together. So it's a team effort. And then when the patient comes in, we will administer the vaccination once we're happy that we've noted nothing abnormal when we're examining them.
But other practices might do it differently. So they I've heard of other practices that would send out a questionnaire pre-appointment or the vet might do a phone call or there might be some practices where they want the animal to come out the back just for a quick check and that's fine as well. It's just not how it works for us. But this is kind of opened up the door a little bit for us so.
Jill Macdonald (15:57)
Yeah, thanks thanks Lauren. Jules, did you have something you wanted to add to that?
Julie Dugmore (16:02)
Yeah, it was really just to confirm that Lauren was absolutely right. The RCVS did change the under care guidelines to modernise standards for telemedicine, to regulate remote prescribing and to address environmental concerns. So I just wanted to to let people know that that was the reason.
Jill Macdonald (16:20)
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, how you know, a piece of guidance like that can change for one reason, but actually when you interpret it and incorporate it into your protocols and the way you work, it can have benefits in other areas as well, as as Lauren's just outlined. And just going on from something you were saying there, Lauren, about all working together and everything, question is what's it like to work in your practice? What's it like when you come into work in the morning? How does it feel as a veterinary nurse?
Carly Masters (16:48)
Do you know what? I've been a nurse for so many years now and I still go to work every day and I love my job. I go there, we have fun, we all get on, and it's a really calm, nice environment to be in. We all work really, really efficiently as a team. We find that a lot of the problems in the industry are retention of staff. However, we have the opposite problem where staff won't leave.
So we’ve got a lot of RVNs. We've got one student now and two VCAs, but ultimately we would want to get more staff, get more students in to create more opportunities. But unfortunately at the moment where we are RVN heavy, it's not possible. So that's why we've kind of been trying to look for ways to be able to fully utilise the team and work how we do.
Lauren Hargrave (17:37)
I think working with our vets in this practice it's been different from other practices in that I feel like everything is more of a discussion so my opinion and my view is really taken into consideration. Yes the vet is the one ultimately prescribing they have that ultimate decision but it really is a discussion and we've got three vets and all of them take into consideration my view and they might, you know, if I say, actually I've read this study and I think that we should be doing this instead, they will take that on board and change things. And I just think that's how the profession should be going as a whole, vets and nurses, because we're supposed to be using evidence and pooling our knowledge together to get the best for our patients. And I think when, veterinary nurses are listened to, then standards in practice tend to be better as well. But I mean, that is just my personal experience. But it's one of the reasons why I wanted to work in the practice I work in. And it's one of the reasons why I've stayed working there. Because like Carly said, I enjoy it. And I am someone who gets itchy feet and I get bored very easily. And I'm definitely not bored yet.
Jill Macdonald (18:50)
Yeah, I totally see how that is a fantastic environment to work in as a vet nurse. And you know, the thing about discussion and opinions been listened to, it's just so important, isn't it? And you know, we've had lots of discussions with people who've been talking about this sort of thing, you know, with people feeling like nurses don't have an input to clinical decision making. And that's just not true. We have such a skill set and knowledge that we have so much capability to input to that clinical decision making and have that clinical input. We've got a different perspective as well, haven't we? So, you know, we're able to bring new ideas to the table as well. I just wanted to ask you about in terms of sort of other team members and vets. I know a lot of people might say, you know, there might be other nurses that don't want to work in this way, there might be vets that don't want to work in this way. Everybody knows that culture change is difficult. Change is difficult. It's scary. How did you manage that and ameliorate that in your practice? How did you make it work and what sort of obstacles did you face and how did you get around them?
Carly Masters (19:57)
So for our nurses, it's really important we don't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. So we've that principle really for years and years with routine nurse consults. When I say routine nurse consults, I'm referring to like weight clinics, nail clipping and things like that. but we've got nurses that have no interest at all, me being one of them, in weight clinics.
So I think from a client's perspective it's really important that they get someone that is really excited, they have lots of preparation. And I think the client really can see that they're getting good value for money when bringing their pet in. If we're forcing people to do something they don't want to, I think then from a client's perspective they know that you don't want to be doing it. So I think yeah, definitely not forcing people to do something they don't want to do. We have had a lot of people though say, but what about if nobody want to do something? But then in that case you just all take one for the team pull together and then take it in turns and not just put it all on one person.
Lauren Hargrave (20:48)
Yeah, I'd say with the vets quite a common one that came up at VN Vision as well was our vets won't do that and I've got a vet that wants to do everything their way and they won't go for it and I think people quite often put up barriers before they've even tried and I find that a lot of vets respond well to evidence and research and you need to go to them with a plan. You can't just be like, I want to do boosters and that's it. You know, it needs to be a discussion and you need to go to them with right, OK, I want to do boosters and this is why I want to do boosters and this is the legislation that allows me to do boosters and this is how I might structure it. But this is another way I might structure it. And what do you think about this? Can we trial this for, you know, this small age group and then really kind of build on that. And I think that most people are reasonable. I think if you just go to the vet and say, I want to do this, then they might just say no, because you shouldn't be making them think about how to structure it. And we follow this with our team with anything, not necessarily just what we're doing here. If a nurse wants to do a dental clinic, for example. Okay, I want to do a dental clinic. Okay, that's fine. But I'm too busy to do all of the research around this dental clinic. So if you want to do a dental clinic, you need to do the CPD, you need to plan it, you need to get everything together. How much is the clinic going to cost? What's it going to include? Otherwise, you know, putting it on management or putting it on the vet to plan it, it's just not going to happen because you can't just expect them to do it when you want to do something.
Carly Masters (22:40)
It's always when you've got a well thought out business plan, it's always harder to say no. As Lauren said earlier, just saying I want to do boosters or I want to do surgery. Okay, that's great, but how are you gonna get there? So I think it is really important to come prepared, because ultimately it is harder to say no to someone that has put a lot of thought and effort into what they want to do.
Jill Macdonald (23:01)
Yeah, I totally agree and I think a lot of nurses might feel like, it's not my place. It's not my place to ask for these things or push these things forward or why should I have to do it? It's the practice that should be doing it or whatever. And that might be right and it might be wrong, but in my experience in practice, absolutely, work out what you want to do, how it's gonna work.
How are you going to fund it? How much revenue it's going to bring in? How are you going to staff it? All those things behind it need to happen, don't they? To make it a viable option for the practice and for the directors and the vets you're working with as well. And that kind of leads me on to my next question, which is going to be about some of the tools you might need to use in practice. So for example, the protocols or skills matrices or that kind of thing that you might need to use in practice. And are there any other sort of tools that you use that have helped you make this work and make this happen in your place of work?
Lauren Hargrave (24:03)
Yeah, so before we did any of this, we wrote protocols and by wrote protocols, I mean, I spent hours writing protocols, perfecting them, peeling through the legislation and the guidance to make sure that everything was OK. Then we went to our vets, then we went to Jules who put us onto the standards team and standards team came back with some tweaks to it. We then tweaked it, sent it back to them. Then they came back to us again and said, yes, that's fine. And then we went ahead with it. So, this is not just us waking up one day and going, we're going to do boosters, we're going to do lump removal. It's really well thought out.
Carly Masters (24:43)
We're constantly reviewing them, sitting down having discussions with the vets. Even if we're doing an appointment and maybe something's continuously coming up we might speak to the vets and say look can we include this in our protocol? So we'll sit down have discussions I think it's all about communication really isn't it I think communication is really really important in what we're doing.
Lauren Hargrave (25:02)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we've got good open communication in our practice. And I think that is really the backbone of what we're doing is a good communication across the team. And I really think that's the backbone of any team really. If you've got good communication, then you can do anything as a team because you can work things out and discuss things and have non-emotional discussions and opinions, which, I think it isn't in every team. So I do think before you go out and do something like this, you should work on that communication and culture.
Jill Macdonald (25:36)
Yeah, absolutely. And I was just going to ask as well, did you include the rest of your support team in those discussions, your receptionist or your patient care assistants? And how many patient care assistant team members do you have and what value do they have in you being able to do what you do?
Carly Masters (25:53)
Yeah, so it was important to involve all members of the team. Ultimately the reception team are the people that are speaking to the clients and communicating to the clients. So we did create them a list of consultations that we would see in addition. What we do is we call our nurse appointments senior nurse consultations, and by that we don't mean that you've been qualified a long time, it's more about skill level, just so reception are able to identify what is a senior appointment and what is a routine nurse consultation. So we gave them a list of all the appointments that we could see. and then they can book the diary according to the list. Now, when we first started, we weren't really getting too many appointments booked in and we couldn't figure out why. So I went to reception and said can I just ask how you're kind of wording it to the clients and they said, well, we're saying, would you like to see the vet or the nurse? But in that instance the owners are saying, oh we'll see the vet. So we got reception to reword to say these appointments are routinely booked in with the senior nurse. We've got 10.15 available. Is that going to be suitable for you? And nine times out of ten, the owner's like, yep, that's fine, book me in.
We do sometimes still get clients that want to see a particular vet and that's absolutely fine. Then they're more than welcome to see the vet they always see. As well as not forcing nurses to do things they don’t want to do we also don’t force clients to do anything they don't want to do either. I don't think it would go down very well.
Lauren Hargrave (27:15)
Yeah, I think just adding to that, explaining what we do. So, for example, I saw a lump clinic. We had a guy had taken a picture of it was like a little wart like lump on his dog and he sent it into the practice.
So we booked him in for an appointment and the vet directed to me to perform an FNA. So I spoke to the guy, did an assessment on the dog, did a health check and did an FNA on the lump. And the lump came back inconclusive, I think because it was so tiny and there wasn't a lot of cells yielded.
And the guy was a little bit confused about, you know, that it could come back inconclusive, even though I told him that it could do. And he said, are you sure you collected the sample correctly? And actually one of the vets spoke to him and said, this is nothing to do with the skill. This is just to do with the fact that there weren't many cells that were yielded from that particular type of lump. The guy was absolutely fine with that.
I called him back and said, what do want to do? And he wanted it removed. And I said, well, I'm quite happy to do that. If you're happy for me to do it as a senior nurse. And he said, yes, that's absolutely fine. And it got booked in with me and I removed the lump and it just, touching on communication again, that communication with clients is really important as well.
Carly Masters (28:37)
Continuity as well. It’s good seeing the same person I think.
Lauren Hargrave (28:40)
And the fact that the vet backed me up there. You know, we all know these things can come back inconclusive. It depends on what the lump is whether any cells are actually taken from it. And rather than the vet saying, it was because the nurse did it, the vet was like, no, I know that Lauren's skill level is good. This is just because of what the lump was and because of how small it was. I'm going to back her up there, which was really lovely.
Jill Macdonald (29:05)
Yeah, and it's like that whole culture thing in practice again, isn't it? Of like being supported by your vets and feeling safe to do things like that and maybe do things that you're not so familiar with and know that if something goes wrong in inverted commons because it didn't actually go wrong, then somebody's got your back.
And the other thing I was going to say was it's come up a lot at our workshops that it that the culture thing is not just about within practice, it's with the public as well. And we've got to bring them along with us and we've got to talk to them and tell us what we're doing and make it the norm. It's like you were saying, Lauren, about how if somebody calls in and wants an appointment or something and the reception team say that appointment will be with a nurse. And that's how it is in human medicine. You know, we don't ring up the doctor and say, I want a blood test. And they say, Okay, that's with the nurse. And we say, no, I want to see the doctor. It doesn't work like that. and I think we just need to sort of develop that approach within veterinary practice where it is just standard that many of these appointments, consultations, issues will be dealt with by a veterinary nurse and we're perfectly qualified and able to do that.
So just sort of wrapping up now, you’ve talked about some of the tools you've used there and obviously the future parts of this project. So at this stage we're just performing thematic analysis on all the data we have, which is a huge amount of data, and developing the theory of change to help drive this all forward. We also have an advisory panel set up ready to help input to that draft theory of change. We're also hoping to perform a consultation to the profession to put that theory of change out there and say, you know, this is what we want to do, this is the way we think it needs to be approached and just ask for the input from the profession. And then following that, we'll be running a series of workshops to help develop the actual activities that are going to feed into the resources that we need. And I'm sure Carly and Lauren, you will be helping us along the way as we move forward, whether you want to or not. You will be part of it, I'm sure.
In terms of getting involved just look out for any updates on VN Vision and on our a vision or necessity project. And look out for press releases, any surveys, the consultation, any future workshops we run. We also are doing lots of stuff at events this year. So if you're going along to any veterinary conferences or education events, for example, take a look and see if we're there and come along, chat to us. We'll put the contact details in the notes for the podcast. But I think that probably wraps up what we wanted to cover today, doesn't it everyone? Carly and Lauren, do you have any final comments you want to add?
Lauren Hargrave (31:49)
The only thing I haven't said that I would like to mention is how this supports new graduate vets because if your nurses know more and do more than when your new grads come in and come on board, they can be there for a bit more of advice, a bit more of a shoulder to cry on. And we found that it can really support them better.
Not only is it utilising the team well, but it's also supporting those new graduates that coming out and into practice for the first time and doing everything for the first time.
And yeah, we found that we can really support them. So I just wanted to add that one in.
Jill Macdonald (32:25)
Yeah, and it's really important, isn't it? And it's funny when we've been working out an impact statement for this project at the workshops and the impact that we think this work is gonna have. There's just so many things that people come up with that encompass so many aspects, both emotional, mental health, as well as things like career progression, support, teamwork, culture, all those things, it builds such a positive picture, just these changes in the way we work and how much effect they can have on us as a profession and as people, as humans. So thanks very much, Carly, Lauren and Jules, for joining me today. Brilliant to see you, Carly and Lauren. Hope to catch you sometime soon, and we'll catch you all later.
Integrating mental health training into veterinary nurse education
Abi Judd-English (33:24)
So next up, I'm delighted to be joined by Dr. Faye Didymus, Reader in Sport and Performance Psychology, and Dr. Jackie Hargreaves, Senior Lecturer in Sports and Exercise Psychology from Leeds Beckett University.
Jackie and Faye first started working on research within the veterinary sphere back in 2023 when they received funding from our Mind Matters initiative for their research into mental health education for student veterinary nurses.
They have since been awarded more funding from both our Mind Matters Initiative and the RCVS Veterinary Nursing Team to help continue their research through the three-year Veterinary Educator Training in Mental Health Integration and Nurse Development, also known as the Vet Mind Project, which aims to integrate mental health training into veterinary nursing education. So welcome, Jackie and Faye, to the RCVS podcast. It's great to have you here. So can we start by both introducing yourselves, please? So shall we start with you, Faye? Do you want to go first?
Faye Didymus (34:13)
Sure, hi Abi and hi listeners. My name is Faye Didymus and I'm a reader in sport and performance psychology at Leeds Beckett University, based in the Carnegie School of Sport.
Abi Judd-English (34:24)
Perfect. Thank you very much. And Jackie.
Jackie Hargreaves (34:27)
Yeah, hi everyone. I'm Dr. Jackie Hargreaves, also based in the same department as Faye, but a lecturer in sport and exercise psychology but really focusing on physical activity and mental health.
Abi Judd-English (34:39)
Great. Thank you very much.
So, Faye, if we come to you first, why did you decide to pursue research into student veterinary nurse mental health education? Because obviously it's quite a different field to maybe what you've already been working in. So, yeah, could you tell us a bit about that, please?
Faye Didymus (34:54)
Sure, yes. So it is a different field. However, the overlap is possibly more than you might think. So it was really a moment of serendipity, I would say, in that Jackie and I saw the advertisement for the research grant and on first inspection I didn't give it too much thought. But when I looked closer, I thought,actually, this is really well aligned to the work that we do in sport because we focus a lot on, well, I do at least focus a lot on high pressure environments. So that can include athletes and coaches naturally being in the sport field, but it can also include human surgeons, veterinary surgeons, police forces, firefighters, you know, anyone that works in a really high performance environment. So I came at it from that angle thinking, actually, veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses are actually a really interesting population. And then I thought of Jackie because Jackie's background, as she just mentioned, and she'll talk about more in a minute, I'm sure, is in mental health and particularly mental health education. And I thought, hmm, this is quite a nice marriage, actually, and it fits really well. And so we felt that outsider expertise could possibly offer a new perspective and sort of fresh eyes on what was happening in veterinary nurse environments.
And so we decided that it would be worth a shot and we put in a grant application for that original grant that you mentioned that we ended up being successful in getting. And the rest is really history. We've been hooked ever since.
Abi Judd-English (36:20)
Because obviously, yeah, you've now got funding for the second part of your research as well. So it's kind of just carrying on going, which is amazing to see. And it's great the impact that you're already having on the veterinary nursing profession.
So yeah, Jackie, Faye was saying, you're both from sports psychology backgrounds. So how does that sort of help you in your current research and how does it relate to the veterinary nursing profession? I know Faye's obviously spoken a little bit about that, but from your perspective, what would you say?
Jackie Hargreaves (36:43)
Yeah, and I think, yeah, just I guess building on what Faye said, so both our backgrounds, I guess even though the title is sport psychology, mine’s more exercise and health and mental health. So both our backgrounds are in mental health and wellbeing. Faye's more in that performance, mine more actually in general population mental health. So we've both got that background and actually we've both worked in different organisations and enhancing mental health in those organisations and for people within those organisations. So I guess it's that sort of background and those principles that have brought us to veterinary nursing and those principles that absolutely can be shared across different population groups but within the veterinary practice as well. And yeah, some of the work that we've done at Leeds Beckett integrating mental health into the curricula seem to blend really well with the first Sarah Brown grant that we received. So it's bringing together those two fields of mental health, wellbeing, and education curricula that started us in this. But what I'd also say is that we've learned so much from this field that we're taking back to our own fields as well. So it's really nice that sort of I guess we're bringing in this sort of mental health, wellbeing in these environments to veterinary nursing, but we're learning so much about yes, veterinary practice, but actually about placements, about working in environments where it can be quite stressful, where you do need to perform under pressure, which I guess is where also bringing that as especially as Faye said, of that performance element, bringing that in as well.
Abi Judd-English (38:11)
Yeah, for sure. I think as well where it's you've got mental health issues across all industries. So having that give and take and being able to use that knowledge between lots of different industries is really, really useful when it comes to this, isn't it?
So Faye, can you tell me a little bit about your initial research into student veterinary nurse mental health education?
Faye Didymus (38:27)
Sure, yes. So the first grant that we received had two main phases. The first phase was a scoping review, whereby we looked at pretty much all, in fact, I think yes, all, publicly available data. So publicly facing information from higher education institutions and further educational institutions that were offering veterinary nursing education.
So we looked at what they had available. We looked at everything we could from things like course descriptions, if there were any module learning outcomes, course overviews, course handbooks, basically whatever we could get our hands on, we looked at. And then we used that to inform the second phase of the research, which we used interviews, semi-structured interviews, and worked with three different population groups within veterinary nursing. So we spoke to a group of tutors, a group of students, and a group of qualified veterinary nurses, and had relatively equal numbers in each group. We did nearly 30 interviews and collected a lot of data. And what we wanted to hear from them is about how they are teaching about mental health. And there were kind of six key findings. The first one was that taught content does and can contribute to students' mental health. We knew that already, but it was interesting to look at the nuance within veterinary nursing. And the point that Jackie made, I think, is a fantastic one, in that we see all our research, and this research in particular was very much a sort of bi-directional relationship where we're learning from participants as much as they may be learning from us or as much as we may be able to give back. And so that first sort of theme in our findings around talk content contributing to students' mental health is it's not mind-blowingly new. We know that from other areas, but we didn't have the data to understand exactly what was going on in veterinary nursing. So that was interesting.
We also talked a lot in the findings about assessment that focuses on students' mental health. And I think it's fair to say that there was very little direct assessment of students' ability to manage and cope with their own mental health, with the exception of things like applied practice or reflective modules. We also heard a lot about the academic environment. So many of the students and tutors were saying when their group sizes are smaller, they get to know their students better, students get to know their tutors better, and that helped to build an environment whereby students had really strong bonds and relationships with their tutors and other staff, and therefore that seemed to help their mental health. We also looked at mental health and wellbeing support and provision while studying. So that was on the course, but it was also on placement, which lays into our next theme, which was about placement environments. And I don't think it will come to a surprise to anyone that that seems to be a really high risk period. I know there's been some great work going on elsewhere looking at placements and it does seem that it can be wonderful for students' experiences and their mental health, but it also can be a real period of risk if students aren't adequately supported.
And then the final theme of six that we talked to in that project was the culture in clinical practice. And again, I think the kind of biggest message that we took from all of this work is mixed practice. Some really great areas, some really good examples of great practice that students were benefiting from, like crochet clubs and all sorts of, central well-being services and such like really good practice, but then also some pockets where students really didn't feel that their experience was how they would have wanted it to be to support their mental health. And that final theme, culture and clinical practice, really spoke to that. That again, some students had the most fantastic experience in clinical practice, some qualified nurses and tutors really knew their students well and were able to support them effectively, but then other tutors didn't feel they knew their students very well. Some people in practice said that, well, we hardly have any contact, we don't know, we don't know what their needs are, it came out really late, I had no idea how to support them. So yeah, kind of those sort of six three areas are the main things that we took away from it, that we then use to build on the next project.
So off the back of the two main phases of research, the scoping review and the interviews, we came up with a set of evidence-based recommendations and they were really broad ranging, as I'm sure everyone who's listening can appreciate, but we looked at recommendations for taught curricular content enhancements. So how tutors and educational providers might actually integrate new things or different ways of doing what they already do to foster students' mental health. We then looked at training and support for veterinary educators, surgeons, and practice managers. So that was things like support on placement, support for clinical supervisors, mental health awareness training and then we had some recommendations based on student mental health and ability or disability assessment during their education. And we talked about things like student passports, which I know are being trialled, the fit between students and their placements and such like. So it was really those two key phases that culminated in our evidence-based recommendations. And then some of those recommendations we've been able to take forward into future work.
Abi Judd-English (43:30)
Yeah, I mean, it's all such, such important work and you've done a fantastic job because obviously it is an area that people haven't done any research into before. It's finding those gaps and then being able to pass on what you've learned and give those evidence based recommendations. Because I think the key is that we can do all this work, but if it's not evidence based, it's not going to make the difference that we want it to make. So it's fantastic to see that you're doing that.
So Jackie, could you tell me how the VetMind project is building on your past research? So what does that involve and what are you aiming to achieve?
Jackie Hargreaves (43:57)
Yeah, sure. So as Faye was talking about there, in terms of the recommendations we produced this is very much looking at how we integrate those recommendations into practice, into veterinary nurses curricula.
But also a big part of those recommendations was around training for tutors and for practitioners who work with students.
The first part is producing some webinars for veterinary nurse tutors. And these are going to be very much co-produced. We have done some workshops already, to look at what these webinars might look like. And will very much again integrate those recommendations from that first project. So looking at the talk curricula, how do we integrate mental health into the talk curricula? And when we talk about mental health, we're very much talking about in its entirety in that we all have mental health. So yes, there might be some discussion about mental ill health, but that would very much be around what the boundaries are around that. So staff and tutors know what the boundaries are, when they should be referring, but also importantly really enhancing the mental health of the students. So helping students to feel confident and able practitioners going out into the field of vet nursing, feeling that they can speak up when necessary, that they have a voice, but really building that confidence in the students to go out into the world. So yes, partly around resilience training and aspects such as that, but ultimately those webinars and the training package that we're developing it's actually around enhancing the confidence of tutors as well because that's very much what we found in that first project. We're hoping also to work with at least one but potentially two courses, sort of to mentor them through a process of integrating it across an entire curricula going forward. And then with that, evaluating that process as we go.
Abi Judd-English (45:44)
Yeah, that sounds great and super interesting work again. And obviously building that foundation is so important and making the tutors have that confidence, as you say, to be able to build that foundation in the students. And then hopefully it just keeps filtering down through as they go through into their careers and then they'll be able to filter that knowledge down. So yes, it's great.
So, Faye, going back to you. What are your hopes for the future? Will there be any future research to come, do you think? I mean, you've done loads already, but any future plans?
Faye Didymus (46:11)
We hope so, I think is the short answer. Like we hope so. In terms of our hopes for the future, based on the research that we've done so far and are doing, we would like to see a world where veterinary nursing mental health is prioritised during and beyond training, and a world where all tutors of veterinary nursing feel confident and able to build these mentally healthy principles of taught curricula into their education provision. We would like to see educational establishments embedding mental health principles within all VN curricula. And as we've said in the podcast so far, we have seen some really great areas of good practice there. But as Jackie said, I think it's about building the tutors. We had a phrase a long time ago when I attended a summer camp and the phrase was happy staff means happy campers. And it's so true. If we can get our educators happy and confident and able to teach in a way that supports students' mental health, then we really likely will have a veterinary nursing workforce that is more able to manage the demands of the profession. And then I guess the final sort of arm of our hopes for the future is that veterinary practices are supported effectively to embed mental health and wellbeing at the heart of all their processes. And that might be, you know, when it comes to pay or paying for students whilst they're on placements, you know, paying for their time, which then alleviates the pressure from students. It might be about processes for staffing and cover when staff are sick and booking of appointments so that no member of staff is overwhelmed. And I do appreciate that all of these suggestions are very blue sky thinking, but I come from quite a positive psychology stance where I think, well, if we aim really high and we fall slightly short, we'll have made a really good impact.
So that’s what we hope in a nutshell for veterinary nursing. And I think most people would be with us on that. I think we're all working towards a common goal of helping people to live better lives within veterinary nursing. And in terms of the future for our research, it really depends. if there's any researchers listening, they'll understand about income streams and if we can support ourselves to do more research and to secure funding to do that, then absolutely I'm sure we will continue. So it's probably a bit of a watch this space, Abi, at the moment.
Abi Judd-English (48:24)
Yeah, for sure. It's really exciting, like I was saying, already it's had such a massive impact, and we're just going to continue to see that growing. So yeah, Jackie, what one thing would you like our listeners to take away from today's conversation? So not necessarily just those working in veterinary, but also in society more widely.
Jackie Hargreaves (48:40)
Yeah, great. Actually, the thing I was going say for those working in veterinary nursing actually probably does go across society in a way. And that's the point that mental health doesn't mean mental ill health and that actually everyone can integrate principles of mental health and everyone has that ability and capability to do that.
And so again, it's building that confidence to enhance the students going forward.
Abi Judd-English (49:03)
Yeah, great. Thank you very much. And Faye, finally, how can veterinary professionals stay abreast of your research? So if they want to keep up to date with what you're doing and ongoing developments, how can they do that?
Faye Didymus (49:12)
Good question. So for those who like to read academic literature, there will be some open access journal articles. One will be very soon submitted for publication that anyone can access because we'll publish it in such a way that they can.
For anyone who doesn't like to read academic literature or that just doesn't float your boat, we do relatively frequently appear in the RCVS newsletters and other forms of newsletters through other veterinary nursing organisations. This podcast, maybe more to come in the future if you'll have us back, Abi. And we have done over the years and probably will do more various webinars and such like that are advertised through the RCVS, the BVNA and other places. You might see us popping up at conferences every now and again. So we're hoping that the MMI Mental Health Research Symposium will go ahead again in 2027, in which case we'd hope that we will be there so we can talk in person about the research that we've done and what we might do in the future. So hopefully there's something for everyone, those who like to read, those who like to listen, those who like to talk in person, but plenty of ways to stay up to date. And obviously, you know, you can find our profiles online relatively easily. And people are welcome to email us whenever they like. We're always up for a chat about veterinary nursing.
Abi Judd-English (50:21)
Thank you. Yeah, that's really great. And obviously we've got a lot of information as well on our Mind Matters section on our website now. So I'll put the link to that in the show notes that people can find out more about your work and follow your research journey. So yeah, thank you both so much for joining me. It's been really great chatting to you. And as you say, hopefully we'll be chatting to you again soon about all your wonderful work. So thank you very much.
Faye Didymus (50:41)
Thanks, Abi. Thanks for having us.
Jackie Hargreaves(50:42)
Thank you.
Outro
Abi Judd-English (50:58)
A massive thank you to Jill, Carly, Lauren and Julie and to Faye and Jackie for giving up their time to share their valuable expertise with us in today's episode.
The work you are all doing is vital and we look forward to watching the impacts this will have not only on veterinary nursing but on the entire veterinary team, both now and in the future.
More information on both the VN Vision project and on Jackie and Faye's work can be found in the show notes.
Don't forget that listening to today's episode counts towards your CPD, so be sure to record and reflect on the 1CPD app.
Many thanks for listening.
END
