Podcast - Next Steps: returning to practice after parental leave

Introduction

Abi Judd-English (00:24)
Hi everyone and welcome to the April edition of the RCVS podcast where we chat to you about everything that's going on at the College, explaining why we do what we do, how we do it and how we can all work together as we continue to support the advancement of the veterinary professions.

I'm Abi Judd-English, RCVS Senior Media and Publications Officer, and today we're bringing you part one of a two-part special on our 'Next Steps' project.

Led by our Advancement of the Professions Team, the project aims to develop a range of resources to support key professional transitions, specifically for returning parents, those returning after a career break, and those moving into management.

In this episode, Angharad Belcher, Director for the Advancement of the Professions, speaks with Lauren Davis, a vet turned pet sleep expert and business founder, live from the Society of Practicing Veterinary Surgeons Congress in Birmingham.

In the chat, Lauren shares her personal journey and offers honest insights into navigating the emotional, physical and workplace challenges of returning to work after having children.

Their conversation includes practical advice for employers, managers and employees alike.

But before we get into that, I'll be giving our usual news updates, highlighting some of the key stories from across the College. Then, my Comms colleague, Luke Bishop, will be delving into greater detail about the recent outcome of the Competition and Markets Authority's investigation into the veterinary services for household pets market with our Senior Vice President, Linda Belton, exploring what this could mean for you as veterinary professionals as well as us as a regulator.

I hope you enjoy the episode.

News update

Abi Judd-English (02:09)
With spring now in full swing, there's been a lot going on across the College recently.

At the end of March, the Competition and Markets Authority published its final report on its investigation into the veterinary services for household pets market. We have responded by broadly welcoming many of the remedies and our future role in monitoring compliance with these by veterinary businesses, but have voiced some concerns about other recommendations. This will be explored in greater detail later in the podcast.

In other news, the RCVS Council elections are due to come to a close at 5pm on Friday 24th April. We have 15 candidates standing this year and veterinary surgeons are able to cast their votes for up to three people. If you haven't already cast your vote, be sure to get your voice heard and vote for your preferred candidate.

As only two veterinary nurses stood for VN Council this year, there is no VN Council election and the two VN candidates who put themselves forward for the two available positions will automatically join the VN Council at our Annual General Meeting on Friday the 3rd of July.

Elsewhere across the College, with potential legislative reform on the horizon, the ongoing work of our Workforce Project has never been more important. That's why, last month, we produced a new animation and accompanying feature highlighting the work of the project and illustrating the importance of collaborative, forward-looking and supportive regulation.

Heading out and about, at the end of April, we're attending the Veterinary Management Group Congress in Stratford-upon-Avon. While there, as well as being available to chat on the stand, we'll be hosting two sessions. Our Mind Matters Team will be running an interactive 90-minute session on managing mental health in the workplace, introducing the new free Managing Mental Health in the Workplace Academy CPD course, as well as sponsoring the tea and coffee breaks where they'll be showcasing their new branding, while our VN Team will be hosting a workshop titled, 'How We Can All Integrate Nurses Into Our Team: Sharing Strategies and a Practical Roadmap for Change.'

Back at the College, the Mind Matters Team are also running Managing Mental Health in the Workplace for Everyday Leaders training sessions over the next few months for current or aspiring veterinary managers and leaders. These sessions have been designed to embed key concepts from the online Managing Mental Health in the Workplace Academy course by bringing them to life through discussion, self-reflection and practical exercises.

More information on all these stories is available to access via the news and views page on our website, the link to which is in the show notes.

CMA update

Luke Bishop (04:47)

Hi everyone, this is Luke Bishop from the RCVS Media Team. Today we're going to be talking to RCVS Senior Vice President Linda Belton about the recent Competition and Markets Authorities report outlining its remedies for the veterinary market and its recommendations as well.

Just to start us off Linda, a couple of weeks after the publication now as we record, so I was just wondering if you would give me a bit of an overview of what our thoughts were on the recommendations that were made in the report.

Linda Belton (05:14)
Yeah, I mean, think as we said at the time, broadly supportive of a lot of the remedies, the classic sort of sunlight remedies that are in there around transparency of both ownership and pricing, I think are good to see. It would be really helpful for owners to have that come through. We did have some concerns about a couple of pieces. I think the concept of price and value- they're not the same thing. And as an example, pricing of parasiticides is perhaps not a great marker of how to choose a veterinary practice. I think other positives are that opportunity to potentially close some of the regulatory gap that exists in the sector.

Full closure will depend on, obviously, legislative reform. But there are a couple of pieces in here around protecting clinical autonomy and empowering vets to make their independent decisions. And that will help the public believe that as well, because the CMA were really clear that vets were working to really high standards and acting ethically and really compassionate. But owners also need to believe that and I think knowing that that autonomy is protected will be helpful there. And I think one of the other concerns was some of their recommendations about governance.

Now, the RCVS is really pro-governance reform and has been advocating for it for years. But I think some of the things the CMA have proposed, there are better policies out there.

Luke Bishop (06:29)
And the RCVS had been involved with the market investigation over quite a long period, pretty much since it was launched. So could you talk to me a bit more about the role of the RCVS during the course of the investigation and how much difference you think our contribution made overall?

Linda Belton (06:44)
The RCVS has put in a vast amount of work to really help inform the CMA about the veterinary professions and how things work and the importance of maintaining standards of animal health and welfare in the UK. So, yes, their remit is around costs for pet owners, but we don't want that to improve at the detriment of animal health and welfare. And the thing about the work that the RCVS has done, and it has been a huge amount of work from everybody, is they've had the evidence and the data and been able to present that to the CMA as well as sort of well-informed opinion. I think the CMA have shown evidence that they have listened to feedback from all the different people involved, including the RCVS, but others too, of course, around some of their proposals. And they have not taken forward some of the earlier suggestions, which either didn't land well with the public or they could see had deleterious consequences. So I think contribution has been significant, but a vast amount of work has gone into it. And we still don't really know the impact of their proposed remedies yet, and we are still awaiting some of the detail to be able to understand how that will work.

Luke Bishop (07:52)
And just going back to the point you made previously about governance, and the suggestions made by CMA in their report. In terms of the RCVS's view on future governance of the organisation, could you set out what basically the preferred policy is here?

Linda Belton (08:06)
I think it's really important to just reiterate that the RCVS is pro governance reform and has been advocating for it. And has done a lot of work to look into what appropriate reformed governance could look like for the benefit of professional regulation, public trust and confidence and maintaining animal health and welfare. And that's the remit. And the reason that the Royal College that regulates model has such strengths in our profession...

We are a relatively small profession and it has enabled us to really be proactive and forward looking at how we can support veterinary professionals to succeed rather than just disciplining them after they fail. So, some of the things which the RCVS was relatively early to do, such as looking at supporting the mental health of veterinary professionals, they were one of the first regulators to do that. And it was that Royal College that regulates model that enabled them to work in this sort of area.

And this is now seen as just normal regulatory good practice. And that flexibility of that Royal College that regulates model to look holistically at the whole picture and provide professional leadership as well as professional regulation in a very cost effective way is where the model has such advantages.

Luke Bishop (09:18)
And just looking at the CMA market investigation overall, I think it's fair to say that it's been quite a stressful time for the professions for vets and vet nurses. There's been, kind of bit of negative publicity around. There's been unkind and unfair social media comments and posts. Looking back at it, you know, what would you say, I guess, the profession can learn from it? And what's a better kind of impression of what the profession actually is that's come out of all the discussions that's been had around CMA investigation?

Linda Belton (09:45)
Yeah, I think it was really tough, especially at the start. You know, the media did pick up on it, the mainstream media rather than just the veterinary press. And there was an awful lot of vet bashing and some quite high profile ones as well. And I think it's important to remember that actually a lot of the post bag into the initial concerns when the CMA first proposed this investigation came actually from within the veterinary professional sector, we were a big part of the post bag back to the CMA with concerns ourselves. One of the things that the investigation has subsequently done is highlighted to pet owners the difference between the veterinary professional you see and the veterinary business from which they work. And I think previous investigation from the perspective of pet owners, the vet and the veterinary business were one and the same, which of course they are not now.

So I think that's actually been a little bit of an advantage that's come from it. People have that understanding from it. And I think one of the other things is that also pet owners know how important it is that we do have those conversations with them about costs. There is no NHS for pets. There will be a bill attached to whatever treatment path we choose. And it's really important that we do make sure pet owners are well informed. And a lot of these CMA remedies are about better information.

And I think if pet owners know we have to talk to them about money, some of those negative reactions that you can get as a vet when you see a pet, and particularly in an emergency situation where things are often quite emotional, and you do start talking about money, you often get quite a negative reaction. And hopefully now pet owners will understand that this is something we have to do. And it doesn't mean we're not going to offer good care or we're only worried about money. It's just part of the whole picture.

Luke Bishop (11:24)
Well, thank you very much for your time, Linda. I guess now it's waiting for the implementation stage of all the of the remedies and seeing how involved the RCVS will be in that implementation and ongoing monitoring and enforcement as well. So I'm sure it's going to be an interesting few months ahead.

Linda Belton (11:39)
I think it will be with quite a lot more detail we still need before we know what comes through. Thanks Luke.

Luke Bishop (11:45)
Thank you.

Next Steps - returning to practice after parental leave

Angharad Belcher (12:00)
Welcome to the latest edition of the RCVS podcast and today I'm joined by Lauren who is going to introduce herself in just a second but I'm going to start with the fact that we are here today at SPVS in Birmingham. So this is our first time taking the podcast out and about on the road which is very exciting for us. You can probably hear the buzz in the background of other delegates who are here so hopefully you can get a flavour for the event as well. Lauren thank you so much for joining us. Could you tell us a little bit about who you are and your background please?

Lauren Davis (12:27)
My name is Lauren Davis, so I'm a vet by trade. I'm now a pet sleep expert and also founder of Vet Relief, so we make kennel mattresses and orthopaedic dog beds. But today I am here as a mother of two who's gone back to work in veterinary commercial environment, and has gone back to work into human health care commercial environment after having both of my babies and have also gone back into clinical practice after a career break, so I have returned in all sorts of different guises over the years.

Angharad Belcher (12:55)
Which is excellent because that means that you will be able to share so many different insights and hopefully people can hear this and feel as though different parts it will resonate. So today, the topic is around returning to work, to give people a bit of an insight into some of the other work that we are doing as an organisation. So all of those of us who have returned to work in some format after maternity, paternity, other leave periods of time. We all face different challenges What do you think are the biggest hidden challenges in returning to work as a mum?

Lauren Davis (13:24)
One of the big things for me is that the things that I thought were going to be challenges before I went off were generally okay and then there was a whole host of things that I just didn't know was going to be a problem that came out of the woodwork. My hormones were through the roof, I didn't know what side of bed I was going to be getting out of, what Lauren would people be receiving in the office.

The night sleep that I had before -now my pinnacle - everything I do is around sleep - that is something that is so fragile when you have young kids and so impactful on what version of you you can bring to a table and not just whether you're grumpy or not but how well you can recollect things, how well you can disseminate information, all of those sorts of things rely on your sleep hygiene. So all the stuff I thought would be hard, just like you how am I going to manage the nursery drop-off and all that sort of stuff, that was actually not too bad.

It's all the other hidden stuff that really scuppered me.

Angharad Belcher (14:16)
It is that, isn't it? Because until you're in that situation, you just have no concept, do you? You sort of build in your mind of what you've observed from other people. But unless people talk about their experiences, it hits you for the first time, going, am I the only person dealing with this? Everybody else seems to be coping OK. Am I different?

Lauren Davis (14:33)
Well, absolutely. Of course then, what happens is it's the stuff that could be perceived as embarrassing or unprofessional or that is kind of frowned upon, that is the stuff that doesn't get discussed. And that's the worst things that could possibly be a surprise, right? If it was a surprise that the nursery drop-off was a bit tricky, you could probably get over that. But no one tells you you've got to wear stuff in your underwear for months and months and months afterwards. No one tells you that that first period, you know, whenever it is, you might be breastfeeding for eight months - that absolutely hits you like a train. Don't plan to go to a congress. What can you control around that? Maybe you can't control where you're going to be, but how can you have a conversation with your team that says, I'm absolutely wrecked here. And that's the stuff that people shy away from using the word period. That's crazy, isn't it?

Angharad Belcher (15:20)
It is. It's a perfectly normal bodily process.

Lauren Davis (15:21)
And there are so many women in our profession as well, but also most men have women in their lives. You know, they've got mums, they've got sisters, they've got partners, they've got daughters. This is not something that is just within the female sphere. We should all be talking about this sort of stuff.

Angharad Belcher (15:34)
I think those are some of the things that people can be so anxious about - talking about it, trying to find solutions to this problem, or they've heard horror stories that then stops people wanting to return as quickly. Did you come across that feeling when you were returning in different ways of going, this is going to be awful?

Lauren Davis (15:50)
Absolutely, there were definitely moments where I thought, I just can't do this. I remember pumping alone in a room that a corporate I was working for at the time had designated for beauty, when people wanted to have their nails done and their hair. And there was a designated room for that, but there was not a designated room for women returning to work to pump or do any of the of hygiene things that they needed to do. So my milk being stored in a fridge that also had all these beauty products. And not that it's bad to have a room for beauty - someone's had a really lovely thought there - but it was never being used for that. It was being used for actual things that people really needed and that there was a disconnect between that design and the use case of those kind of spaces. You can't just like, you know, like breastfeeding, you can discreetly...when you're pumping, it's quite a mechanical functional situation isn't it?

Angharad Belcher (16:37)
Especially when you're used to being with your baby and it's quite a bonding moment isn't it to have that time together and as you say this is sort of a step removed from that.

Lauren Davis (16:46)
Yeah, I went back with my first baby at six weeks, which was very early. We just needed the money. I think I did also got myself into a bit of persona that I was a doer and I was just going to crack on and that maybe I wasn't all that motherly and you know I was really kind of a work person and then actually I had the baby and she was brilliant, she's the best thing and I just melted into having this child and being this mum but somehow couldn't let go of the fact that I decided that I wasn't going to be that person and I couldn't accept that change and I went back to work too early really. There would have been other solutions, there would have been other ways. Instead of accepting that I just ploughed on and I think probably a lot of people listening who've been through similar things, we, as a profession do a lot of ploughing on.

Angharad Belcher (17:32)
And there is a lot of pressure, isn't there, to either return or not return? You either love your job too much, or you love your child too much, or vice versa.

Lauren Davis (17:39)
Yeah and to come back and then say actually I've made the wrong decision, I'm going off again. What about your maternity leave pay?

All of these sorts of things, it's really difficult. Okay, you can do a kit day, but that's not the same. You're either thrown at the deep end for an entire day of work, and it's horrendous, or you're treated like you're wrapped in cotton wool and it's really hard to get those days right. And I say that from an employer and an employee point of view, and that's not put on either side. It is really difficult to get a feel for what it's gonna be like in an eight-hour day.

Angharad Belcher (18:07)
Completely. And you have no idea as the employer how the person will be feeling when they're coming in for that kit day. They might have had six hours sleep which is the dream, they might have had one hour sleep spread across four hours. You just you don't know what capacity they will have coming back in and then as the person coming back in that's really scary to go what if I've forgotten everything or everyone thinks that I'm useless and they don't want me to come back and you're judging yourself aren't you?

Lauren Davis (18:29)
Yeah and I think it's all down to those people as well. So for me, I'm quite a blunt person. I would have absolutely not minded someone sitting me down and being like, what's going on with your body? What's going on with your brain? What's going on with your emotions? Give me all the stuff and then we'll sort it. But the other people, the idea of their boss sitting them down and asking what's going on with their body, horrendous, invasive, inappropriate perhaps. So that's where the team dynamics are so important, is finding the right person to have that conversation and to be able to go into it being like, these are the sort of things I would like to know but we're only going to talk about as much of that as makes you feel comfortable but the door is open.

Angharad Belcher (19:03)
And it's very similar when we talk about reasonable adjustments you might put a reasonable adjustment in place to somebody, that's not the end of it. You have to revisit and re-contract because there is change. And sometimes with the best of intentions, you put a plan in place and it just doesn't work. And other times there isn't a plan necessarily, but there are a couple of tweaks that have been made to schedules or to conditions.

And that's life-changing. And it's the same with that return to work after maternity, paternity, adoption, whatever. There's that moment of going, we need to talk about this. But we need to talk about it before somebody goes away so that there isn't that panic and that stress.

Lauren Davis (19:38)
Yeah, absolutely, and we talked about the fact that I didn't really understand what my challenges were going to be when I got back. And maybe I might have had a meeting before I left and talked about entirely perhaps what you might call then the wrong things. But that's not the point. The point is that there was a conversation about it and then the doors opened to continue that conversation and go, well, what have we learned? We're all learning. You're your own person. It doesn't matter how many people have gone off on maternity before or hence. You're you. Where are we at? I think opening the door early is really important before all the hormones kick in and the self doubt and all of those sorts of things.

Angharad Belcher (20:08)
Yeah it's a good thing to be thinking about because we know that at different stages in life all of our vets, nurses, practice staff, they will go through something. That might be childbirth, that might be menopause, might be bereavement. There's all of these things that we know will happen at some point to somebody on our team. So we can have those conversations.

Lauren Davis (20:27)
I think a lot of those things come with fatigue. We just don't talk about fatigue at all, really, because we try and soldier on. We say you get these like big CEOs who really proudly tell everyone they've had four hours sleep and then they get up and have a nice bath and then they do a hike because they're better than you. That's absolute rubbish. You need eight hours sleep. The vast majority of people do.

People say they can survive on four, are doing that, they're surviving. They're not thriving. So how do we make sure that people are willing to report fatigue early enough before we end up with people making clinical errors having anxiety that can, or honestly the level of clinically diagnosable anxiety disorders can come from poor sleep. And so tied up in maternity, of course, the time, possibly the worst sleep of your life. We were talking earlier at this SPVS congress - I was running a table about sleep health for teams. And actually if you've got someone who comes and says I'm absolutely shattered this morning, just move a vaccination appointment let them go lie down somewhere in the dark for 15 minutes you will get that 15 minutes back because when they come back in they'll be working faster they'll be working smarter they'll be feeling better they won't be wandering around wondering where they left their stethoscope, you know, and what do you get back as an employer? You get a better employee but you also get that 'yeah I was listened to'.

Angharad Belcher (21:41)
Yeah, and it's a really good point to highlight how asking for help is not a bad thing and sleep is a basic need. We all know that it exists so we shouldn't be afraid to go, yeah, this is going to be tough to me today. And you mentioned earlier about how you're not the same person when you come back. This is something that often crops up where people will talk about, I went back to the practice and it wasn't the same.

How has that been for your experience and expectations of what you think the practice will be like or the workplace?

Lauren Davis (22:08)
Especially the going back with being not a parent and then a parent is my priorities have just changed completely. And so for me, before the kids, a lot of my social life revolved around the practice as well. Once I'd had the kids, I just didn't have the time or the capacity to do a lot of those things and that's really sad, but at the same time I was pouring my energy into this incredible baby, so I wasn't sad about it specifically. It was just that there's a loss and there's a gain. But yeah, you aren't the same person. I sob now if I hear something on the radio about a sad story,

especially if kids are involved, I suddenly start thinking about my own children in that situation and I'm this blubbering mess down the M1, have to turn it off. I would never have said I would have been that person ever and that person is so different to the person I was before.

Angharad Belcher (22:57)
And I think that's a really big shock, isn't it? That you suddenly don't recognise yourself in some of those moments of going, hmm, I wouldn't have done this last year. And who am I going to be? And who am I at work? And is this practice the right place for me now? Does it give me what I need? Did you have any of those sort of assessment conversations with yourself.

Lauren (23:15)
There were definitely places where I knew were not going to be appropriate for me with a child - a commercial environment where it was hard enough being there without the demands of a family. And to be honest, once I found out I was pregnant, I immediately resigned. So I just know that that's not going to be right. And there's been somewhere coming back, I was a leader as a commercial director of a firm making healthcare mattresses and I went back to there from a maternity and that was very interesting because I was my second baby and I found that the change was almost as seismic as the first and I didn't think it would be and that really took me by surprise because I thought well what's one more? I'm already not sleeping, I'm already a weepy mess. And actually he changed my world a second time, wonderfully and also exhaustingly and all of those things. And there was times then when I went back and I thought can I actually do this with two children? I thought I was managing with one but now the needs of these two people are overwhelming to me and can I actually go back into this commercial environment and function at a director level and then do a nursery run and then have someone throw broccoli at me for an hour and then scream all night and then get up and do it again.

Angharad Belcher (24:20)
It's really hard, isn't it? And to try and have the time for yourself to think about these questions of going, is this right? What am I looking for? What do I need right now? And equally sometimes having to make a decision of going, this would be my dream job, but I can't make that work right now. And I have to do something that perhaps isn't the dream because that's not going to facilitate me being able to do the school run.

Lauren (24:41)
Something's got to give.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Or saying, that perhaps you're not going to progress within that organisation at the rate that you were progressing. So it might not be about perhaps leaving, you might set that leadership position that I want. I'm just going to wait two years, or it might be that actually you think, I'm going to go for it anyway. Because actually sometimes when you're doing it, you just magically manage. It's easy to say you can't do things because of all of these stresses and strains, but actually what you can achieve, is outrageously impressive.

We should be very proud of ourselves because actually I was a great commercial director - despite the broccoli throwing and the middle of the night wake-ups. So I think it's also, yes there's an evaluation period, but sometimes there is a bit of, you know what I can do it anyway.

Angharad Belcher (25:23)
Oh absolutely and having that drive and ambition to do something different is really strong and compelling because you've perhaps got a different motivating factor.

Lauren (25:30)
And you find yourself in a different way. At home, you're mum, the idea that you can go into a board meeting with a hot cup of coffee and talk numbers and just have this whole other world where the crushing weight of raising these children is lifted, it puts some of the other stuff that you do at work into some context. That's what's helpful for motherhood for me.

Am I going to lie awake at night thinking about these targets? No I'm not. I can leave that at the door in a way that I couldn't have done pre-kids.

Angharad Belcher (25:58)
Yeah, you've got to sort of push things around mentally to go, I need enough space to do all of these, bits. So something has to stop at the front door or something has to stop at the work door and you find a different way. similar to parenting or managing chronic illness or elderly care, we pick up lots of other skills, don't we? Is there anything that you think you've really taken from being a parent in the workplace

Lauren (26:20)
I think I'm a more empathetic Little children just wear their heart on their sleeves, don't they? You just get all of their emotions and you have to manage them while managing yourself and that is incredibly difficult, isn't it, when they are not regulated, if you're then dysregulated. That's when it all becomes a nightmare. I vividly remember my daughter being awake in the middle of the night kicking the inside of her door going I will not go to sleep and I was on the landing going yes you will. Just step back from that moment and went that wasn't very good actually that was a low point in my parenting. We were both incredibly dysregulated in that that moment, but learning the skills to regulate myself when someone else is out of whack to help bring them down rather than everybody escalating. I've used those skills time and time and time again. Now I have my own business and it's just me. I get all the customer complaints as well. You know, I have to stop doing the five year forecast because Eric doesn't like his dog bed. And it keeps you humble. But you really have to use all of that training to say, you know, okay, but what if I was in Eric's shoes? Actually, you know what? That box was damaged and he paid a lot of money for that and it arrived and it was dirty. No wonder he's in red. But we can sort that out. Whereas before, I think, the kids, I would have found it really hard not to take that somehow personally, despite the fact it's not my fault.

Angharad Belcher (27:35)
But it is that sort of broadening of your skill set and your awareness of your environment because you suddenly become something else, and you've got to learn to balance and to manage and think about what everybody else is going through. We've all been there, haven't we? Of like, well, when I'm a parent, I won't do this. And then you get to being a parent and go, yeah.

Lauren Davis (27:47)

My goodness.

Yes! Past me, awful. Like, yeah, so high and mighty.

Angharad Belcher (28:03)
And I think it's that whole thing of looking at other people because previously where you perhaps, had tried to be the compassionate self that you wanted to be, you now have a different lens to view it through, don't you?

Lauren Davis (28:15)
Well exactly. It's that like sympathy rather than empathy I don't understand you but I'm sad that that's happened to you. Or it's that, 'Oh my god. Yeah, I've been in that trench'. I think that's one of the blessings of the profession now because we are so female dominated aren't we? And a lot of the men that we have are so open to listening to these sorts of things. And we have a really supportive male network. And we're really lucky in the vet profession with the men that we have and the support that they give us as women.

Angharad Belcher (28:42)
I think you're is that opportunity to keep having these conversations and sharing those life experiences with people, the good ones and the bad ones, so that there is space then for those conversations or for somebody else to listen to that and go, I'd never thought about it like that.

Lauren Davis (28:56)
Yeah, I completely agree and to help the next generation as well. They're not going to understand what it's like until it happens because if we could do that we'd be doing it by now.

But we are learning how to communicate as adults and there's such a wealth of information out there. And it's also about honing out what's actually going to make relevant difference.

No we've got AI, and so much on the internet. You can find anything for any viewpoint about and be overwhelming. So it's also, about cutting out some of the noise rather than trying to do everything for everyone.

Angharad Belcher (29:24)
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as a manager, there's a lot of responsibility to welcoming somebody back and trying to do all that you can. So if you were thinking about your returns, what have been the best things that managers or employers have done to help you come back in?

Lauren Davis (29:42)
the key thing is communication. A KIT day is nice, it's nice to see everyone, but I don't think it really tells you what it's going to be like to return to work. There's some great managers who said, you don't have to be contactable, but are you okay if we keep in touch? I just had lovely check-in messages, how's things going, how's everyone sleeping, the odd bunch of flowers. People have been really kind and you don't feel as disconnected then.

It's easy to do but easy to forget, isn't it? And I hear from a lot of people that when they go on maternity or they take some time away and nobody contacts them, that they feel that all those relationships that they thought were quite strong were maybe more superficial than they'd thought.

And I think actually the small things make a humongous impact.

Angharad Belcher (30:26)
They do and I think there's a lot of managers out there who are so terrified of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing because they haven't done this before. There is all of the employment guidance available on ACAS and other websites so as a manager you can get the 'this is what you should do' but having those human conversations and working with your team to make sure that people do feel included if they want to be.

Lauren Davis (30:46)
We're going out for a meal, do you want us to drop you a line? Is that helpful for you or does that put a pressure on to attend things and you don't want to know that we're doing it? That's a perfectly reasonable question to ask because if their answer is no, I don't want to know, then that's to be respected. And that's absolutely fine.

Angharad Belcher (30:59)
Yeah, I came across a team recently who were talking about how they've moved to doing like a brunch. So one Saturday every couple of months they invite everybody and there's no mandatory attendance but nobody wants to do the late nights. They all want to see each other and this is a nice way for everybody to catch up. They don't have a Saturday clinic and they use that time so that people can just come in and be with each other and spend time as a team without patients and clients around. It's just their time.

Lauren Davis (31:22)
When you're doing those sorts of things, that's when a lot of the conversations that really make a difference to the workforce actually happen because you're not talking about work. But you are talking about how you feel and what's happening at home and all of that kind of stuff comes out. And that's when, you can start picking up, there's something's going on there. And I just, I'm going to quietly just say, 'do you need a bit of hand with that?' Or, you know, 'if we, could just do the rotor a bit. If those Thursdays are killing you, I'll just push you forward and we can start at 9.30 and just finish at four. Would that work?' And suddenly, my God, that would be incredible. But they might not have come to you and said, this Thursday's killing me. So I think that social aspect, if you can get it, it's fabulous.

Angharad Belcher (32:02)
And it's hard, isn't it, to ask for those things because you feel like you're letting the team down or you're letting yourself down. So how do you ask for that help?

Lauren Davis (32:09)
I think maternity leave just makes us all feel super guilty because who's doing the work? You've got someone in a cover but they're not you or they don't know the clients or people are picking up, the extra work while you're off. So you already feel horrendous. And then to come back and say, okay, I'm going to do this. And then a couple of weeks later say, actually, I can't. That's a difficult conversation to have. The crushing weight is that you're letting people down rather than on a journey to find the most sustainable way to rarely let people down.

Angharad Belcher (32:39)
Yeah and being in that space together, giving somebody that dedicated time to go hey let's sit down and chat you're a month in, how's it going, is it working, do we need to do anything different, what would you like to see, how are you feeling about your clinical knowledge, are you wanting to do some CPD, do we need to give you some time to do that, you know where are you at so that you can do it together.

Lauren Davis (32:59)
And I think as well that also, it's also a really great point for you as an employer to say, this bit is going really well. Because I think my confidence was at an all time low when I was coming back from maternity leave. And anytime anyone said to me, that was great, my God, it felt good. Because especially when you've got a very small baby, they don't give you much positive feedback.

Angharad Belcher (33:19)
No.

Lauren Davis (33:20)
There's been no point in my life where positive feedback was more important than after my maternity leaves. And it was just simply things like, I love what you said to that client, or you know what, that PowerPoint smashed it. Ahh it was brilliant. So uplifting. And again, it takes two seconds of your time just to make sure that you're noticing the good stuff, because that's what the confidence build comes from.

Angharad Belcher (33:41)
Yeah, absolutely, because you've done all those things a million times before. But you're doing it for the first time in a different person.

Lauren Davis (33:48)
The major thing that I would say about returns to Work is that most of the stuff that's most impactful is free and quick. It's a little bit of space to talk about things, it's revisiting things, it's giving space for changes and it's positive reinforcement.

Angharad Belcher (34:01)
Very simple.

Lauren Davis (34:01)
Yeah, but I think it is actually. People often want to be there. Everyone's pulling in the same direction and it's not a you versus them. And if it is, you're probably not in the right practice.

Angharad Belcher (34:12)
Yeah. Which can feel really hard, can't it, to go back to a workplace but they've moved on, you've moved on, whatever that might be. It doesn't mean it's a bad place, it's just not the right one right now.

Lauren Davis (34:22)
Absolutely, there's almost a bereavement in that I think and that can be quite hard on top of all the other feelings. Especially if you then put that on yourself and think, oh I've failed. You haven't failed, you've changed. It's not a failure.

Angharad Belcher (34:34)
no - it's a learning point isn't it of going, actually, what I need now in my life is this, this, and this.

Lauren Davis (34:38)
Yeah, exactly. And can that be achieved where I am or can it not? Having the headspace to even think those things to yourself can be very difficult when you have a small baby.

Angharad Belcher (34:47)
And that's where taking that time to talk to somebody whether it's a friend who's not in the veterinary profession at all, or whether it's somebody that you have worked closely with to go, this is really difficult and I think maybe this isn't for me right now, or I need to do something different, because everybody else has probably been in that moment.

Lauren Davis (35:03)
You've got a lot of decision fatigue as a new parent, as any parent really, but as a new parent especially. Are they still in the right size nappies? Have we thought about teething? When should we start weaning?

They've never been asked so many questions nor had to answer so many internal questions in my life. So the idea of putting another decision, quite a major life decision, on top of that is a lot, isn't it? It's no wonder that people try and stay put and then struggle through that. They have to shut up and put up, don't they, to do that. And if someone's unhappy, that's contagious in a team.

So it's not just about that person and that manager, actually if you're tired and unhappy and struggling that will spread.

It's so hard but I think that's where as employers we have to enable people to have the headspace to have one more decision.

Don't think about baby purees or nappy sizes, just for a second. We're going to talk about you and your career. We're going to put you first.

Angharad Belcher (35:56)
And that's not selfish.

Lauren Davis (36:03)
No it isn't. You the person. How are you? Is this working? Having that lacuna of time.

Angharad Belcher (36:04)
So one of the things that we're talking to people about here today and you'll see on social media and when this podcast lands, that we've got some new workforce focused events that we're running. And one of those is looking at returning to work. So we've got two, one thinking about more sort of parental leave and then one after a career break, which might have been because of childcare needs, but it also might be elderly care or thinking about your own personal illness or somebody else's within your family and caring responsibilities. So one of the things that we're trying to highlight is that thinking about your return isn't selfish and we will have various resources that are part of these days and taking that time for yourself is a really important thing to do. Not just because there's the focus on I need to join the register again or I need to change my status, but encouraging people to think about what they want from those next couple of years, recognising that it might be your superstar years, it might be a couple of years where you go actually I just want to get through this so would something like that have helped you.

Lauren Davis (37:00)
I absolutely think it would have done. It just gives you that power to say, this isn't just for me actually. This is going to be helpful for everybody. It takes the weight of that guilt off to say, if I can get this right over the course of a couple of months or six months, then actually I will be a much better employee. As well as hopefully more able to parent in the way that I want to parent and the more that we can talk about that and say get it out there talk about what you need let's get it right for everybody it's gonna be so positive and you can be amazing because you already are. If you are a parent and you are at work in my opinion you are already amazing.

They are two incredibly demanding things. So you're already smashing it. So it's just a different way, perhaps.

Angharad Belcher (37:40)
Yeah. Well, I think we can leave it there. Thank you so much for coming to join us and being part of this and sharing your experiences.

Lauren Davis (37:48)
Oh it's been a pleasure. I'll talk until the cows come home if it gets everybody chatting about it.

Angharad Belcher (37:51)
Thank you. Well, thank you for that because it is hard to talk about these things, isn't it? And to feel that embarrassment and that shame and wondering what's normal and how things work. So that is appreciated from us for you opening up and sharing with us. For those of you who are listening, Lauren's been really, really kind in being part of this. You can check out one of the webinars that we did on vet return last year. There's also resources on the Academy for Vet Return, Nurse Return. And later this year we will be launching another Academy course that's supporting managers and employers on returning employees as well. So if you're thinking about welcoming people back make sure you keep your eyes open for that one.

We'll be at VMG, so make sure you come and say hello, come and learn about what we're doing and we would love to hear your stories about your return, what you've learned and if you want to share that with us so that other people can hear how things have worked, what you do differently and we can all move forward stronger together. So thank you very much.

Lauren Davis (38:39)
Thank you very much for having me.

Outro

Abi Judd-English (38:54)
Thanks for listening to the April edition of the RCVS podcast. We hope you enjoyed it and found it insightful. A massive thank you to all of today's guests, particularly our external guest Lauren, for being so open and honest with her experiences and giving up her valuable time to come and talk to us.

Don't forget, listening to this episode counts towards your CPD, so be sure to record and reflect on the OneCPD app.

A link to all the resources my colleague, Angharad, mentioned can be found on our dedicated workforce page, the link to which is in the show notes, where you can also sign up to our Next Steps events and find out more about other College activities. Have a great week and I'll see you again next time.